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Wednesday, March 8. 2017
A good interview with the evil Charles Murray. He discusses social capital, industriousness, civic culture, community, and the stifling of civic life by government.
Posted by The Barrister in The Culture, "Culture," Pop Culture and Recreation at 13:36 | Comments (14) | Trackbacks (0)
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I've listened to several presentations by Murray on YouTube, as well as read some of his writings over the years. I am not sure how anyone can get the impression that he is "racist," a "Nazi," etc. You may not agree with everything he says, but to me it appears he approaches his positions in a rational, rather than emotional, manner, which is more than can be said for a lot of the folks on the other side of the argument.
My read on him also is that his concern is not so much different races but more about a general decline in social culture, education and economic opportunities, which have had their impact on other groups but are also increasingly evident in the white middle and working classes.
"A huge number of well-meaning whites fear that they are closet racists, and this book tells them they are not. It's going to make them feel better about things they already think but do not know how to say.” — Charles Murray
“The professional consensus is that the United States has experienced dysgenic pressures throughout either most of the century (the optimists) or all of the century (the pessimists). Women of all races and ethnic groups follow this pattern in similar fashion. There is some evidence that blacks and Latinos are experiencing even more severe dysgenic pressures than whites, which could lead to further divergence between whites and other groups in future generations.” — Charles Murray
If true, a terribly discouraging fact.
It certainly applies to low-functioning caucasian populations.
So where is the racism? Is it in the study of human differences? Is it in the printing of what you learn? Is it not apologizing and begging forgiveness for what you discover? Where exactly?
I happen to know that blacks, in general, are better basketball players than whites, Asians and latinos. Is that racist? Is the fact that I know it racist? Would it be racist if it were the other way around?
We see a lot of women's marches and a lot of feminists pushing special treatment for women or affirmative action. Is that sexist? I don't see this for men, if we did see that would that be sexist? Is my acknowledgement of all this sexist or racist? Is everything sexist, racist or xenophobic?
Has anyone noticed that South Africa is going full Zimbabwe and is seeing increasing genocide? Is that racist or is it OK because it is white people being killed?
Mr. Murray made a terrible mistake. He was a naive scientist with his nose in a book and had no idea of the quicksand he was stepping into. There were a number of things he could have done to mitigate this before it blew up on him. He could have insisted that all of his findings were the direct result of terrible racism and discrimination over centuries by the white European devils. Or he could have faked the data making all groups look good (kinda like the global warming scientists do). He could have blamed it all on lead paint. He could have blamed it on the original sin; slavery (even though there were more white slaves in Africa than black slaves in America). Or he could have burned all his notes and never printed the damned book. But he did and now he has to burn in hell. There is no redemption from printing the inconvenient truths.
OneGuy: So where is the racism? Is it in the study of human differences?
Murray has argued that whites are genetically superior to blacks.
OneGuy: I happen to know that blacks, in general, are better basketball players than whites, Asians and latinos.
You know, not all blacks can dance.
You do realize there are cultural reasons why many blacks play basketball?
"Murray has argued that whites are genetically superior to blacks."
That is a perfect example of how this issue has been bastardized by the left. Murray isn't arguing anything! He is merely supporting the scientific and social truth of what his research has reveled. And that includes the fact that "whites are genetically superior to blacks". Not that he gloats about it, not that he merely states it from some racist background but merely that it is scientifically true and scientifically reproducible by other researchers. It is a fact, an uncomfortable fact but a fact.
Look at https: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence
Is this true and is this racist? Should Wikipedia be ostracized and their staff stoned to death for saying it? Or is it simply true and perhaps even useful to know and understand?
"You do realize there are cultural reasons why many blacks play basketball?"
I know that the Tarahumara people are superior long distance runners. I know that Ethiopian runners typically win marathons when they enter them. When I was a kid most of the big football players were polish or from other Eastern European countries. There are absolute genetic advantages that some ethnicities have and some disadvantages. Somehow in the strange world that most of the left lives in it is OK to say that Asians tend to be better at math than whites but verboten to say that whites tend to be better at math than blacks.
You cannot solve problems by lying about them. If you are not allowed to consider certain facts when trying to fix a problem then you will probably not be able to fix the problem.
OneGuy: Murray isn't arguing anything! He is merely supporting the scientific and social truth of what his research has reveled.
Many scholars think Murray is distorting the science to reach a preconceived conclusion.
OneGuy: Somehow in the strange world that most of the left lives in it is OK to say that Asians tend to be better at math than whites but verboten to say that whites tend to be better at math than blacks.
Overall, whites average better at math than blacks. The question is whether this is genetically predetermined, or the result of environmental influences. While there is certainly a genetic component to intelligence, the fact that IQs have risen over just a couple of generations indicates there is more involved than simple genetics.
He will never, ever be forgiven for demonstrating with careful statistics a difference in IQs among races. It will taint everything he tries to say for the rest of his life.
Texan99: He will never, ever be forgiven for demonstrating with careful statistics a difference in IQs among races.
His "careful" use of statistics is disputed by many of his peers. As for the differences in IQ, the Flynn Effect calls into question the basis of his claim.
In this interview, Murray is only talking about white folk.
What's with all the disucssion of black people?
"Many scholars think Murray is distorting the science to reach a preconceived conclusion."
That isn't true. His book, the original source of his troubles, was extremely will documented and scientifically provable. NO! What is actually going on is many scholars are shaking in their boots in fear of saying something that isn't PC and they are equally afraid of trying to defend someone who has committed that sin. It is shameful what the left has done to science and scholars.
"The question is whether this is genetically predetermined"
This is where I am going to agree with you. I think that black communities and in general "poor" communites have been very badly served by the politicians and special interest groups. Most blacks believe that they are discriminated against so there is no sense in even trying. Most blacks reject "white" education and are perfectly happy with street smarts and affirmative action to "get by". The NAACP and black politicians and race hustlers are more than happy to keep this exactly as it is. I agree that blacks could do much better in reading, math, English, science, etc. if they had more family support and if their own community created the environment that would encourage them to excel. This is exactly what Jewish, Asian and upper middle class white families do and exactly the reason we see the large disparity between the different groups. I don't think that will change because for the black politicians and race hucksters this is working too well.
IQ is a measure of what you know assuming what you have been taught. It does not really measure how intelligent you are although it kinda rhymes with how intelligent you are. If it did then it would not be possible to have classes and programs that are designed to increase your IQ test scores.
The problem for most kids/adults is either they are NOT taught what many of the high IQ scorers are taught OR that because of their lack of support at home or their cultural predilections they don't bother to learn what is being taught at their schools. Thus a test to measure what they have learned results in low scores. Whose fault is this? The students? The parents? The teachers/schools? The community leaders? ALL OF THE ABOVE.
OneGuy: This is where I am going to agree with you.
Then you reject Murray's position.
Don't be silly. I reject your bastardization or Murray's position. Murray did nothing wrong and said nothing wrong. His basic tenet is provably correct. The left and your inaccurate interpretation of it solely so you can continue to sow the seeds of discontent is 100% wrong. You are simply following Alinsky's rules to destroy this man.
OneGuy: His basic tenet is provably correct.
Except that, while Murray is a genetic determinist, you said " I agree that blacks could do much better in reading, math, English, science, etc. if ..." there were changes in culture.