The protest, the counter-protest, and the Blame America First crowd

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Monday, March 19. 2007

The protest, the counter-protest, and the Blame America First crowd

Moonbattery summarized Saturday's anti-war march in DC, as well as the much larger counter-protest - which received far less news attention. Here.

The NYT also noted than many of the marchers were puzzled by what the march was really about. Blue Crab. Most of the earnest anti-war folks were unaware that they were allied with communist revolutionaries with larger agendas. Lenin's "useful idiots."

Also, related to the links above and the piece below, Barone on the Blame America First crowd. A quote:

"They always blame America first." That was Jeane Kirkpatrick, describing the "San Francisco Democrats" in 1984. But it could be said about a lot of Americans, especially highly educated Americans, today.
In their assessment of what is going on in the world, they seem to start off with a default assumption that we are in the wrong. The "we" can take different forms: the United States government, the vast mass of middle-class Americans, white people, affluent people, churchgoing people or the advanced English-speaking countries. Such people are seen as privileged and selfish, greedy and bigoted, rash and violent. If something bad happens, the default assumption is that it's their fault. They always blame America -- or the parts of America they don't like -- first.

Read the whole fine essay. (thanks, Buddy). And read today's preceding piece: The Gospel of John and Yoko.

Image from Michelle's piece on the protests. She has lots of photos.

Posted by Bird Dog in Our Essays, Politics at 07:24 | Comments (111) | Trackbacks (0)

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Re "Gathering of Eagles", as far as sticking up for their country, looks like the old Boys of VietNam aren't quite done yet.

Anyhoo, another great snip from the Barone article:

"...quoting a speech Winston Churchill gave in 1943 at Harvard: "Law, language, literature -- these are considerable factors. Common conceptions of what is right and decent, a marked regard for fair play, especially to the weak and poor, a stern sentiment of impartial justice and above all a love of personal freedom ... these are the common conceptions on both sides of the ocean among the English-speaking peoples."

#1 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 08:58 (Reply)

Check the pics on the Moonbattery link. Someone worked hard on a placard that was supposed to say "Department of Peace".

But, despite the time & effort the craftsman poured into the piece, he or she still managed to call for a "Deptartmt of Peace".

Was he trying for an effect, or was he just too stupid to know how stupid he is?

These people are to design our Brave New World? Oh, paresh the thuohgt!

#2 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 09:11 (Reply)

The preceding post today about John and Yoko captures the ethos very well. Wish I had written it.

#3 BD on 2007-03-19 10:08 (Reply)

"Many were veterans in biker jackets who said they had come to protect the nearby Vietnam Memorial, citing rumors that had circulated among veterans groups that the demonstrators planned to deface it."

So the right had to lie to right wingers about the protest to get them to counter-protest.

And the Socialists lied to anti-war people about what they would be marching for.

All sheep...both sides. And really ugly, ugly (in terms of behaviour and respect for each other) people on both sides.

#4 ME on 2007-03-19 10:40 (Reply)

So we are not allowed to look at history or the effects of us foriegn policy on indigenous people? Just salute and believe the US can do no wrong...very hitleresque!

#5 madmatt on 2007-03-19 10:42 (Reply)

Godwin's Law. It always happens. Is there any blog less fascist than Maggie's Farm?

#6 BD on 2007-03-19 10:46 (Reply)

I don't blame America first, but I a certainly ashamed of what The Bush & Cronies Crime Family, and their enablers like you, have done to our beloved nation.

Diebold. Minority voter purges. Katherine Harris. Bush v. Gore. Halliburton, Lockheed/Martin, Blackwater. The Aug. 6, 2001, presidential daily briefing. "My Pet Goat", Jack Abramoff. David Safavian. Ken Tomlinson. Signing statements. The phony Unitary Executive theory. The manipulation of terror alerts. The suppression and perversion of science, especially on global warming. The phony case for war in Iraq. The Downing Street memo. Ohio in 2004. Voting machines. Swiftboating. Claude Allen. Jeff Gannon. The lack of planning for and putting unqualified cronies in high positions in "postwar" Iraq. (See Kate O'Bierne's husband.) Dusty Foggo. Katrina. Michael Brown. Enron. Wiretaps. Bank records surveillance. The $8.8 billion (300 tons of cash) missing in Iraq. Destruction of Habeus Corpus. Torture. Illegal wiretapping/data mining. The politicization of AIDS prevention, the Justice Department, and economic statistics tracking. Unconstitutional Faith Based Initiatives. Blocking drugs from Canada. Bankruptcy "reform". Cheney's energy task force. Record high gas prices. Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, "Extraordinary Renditions", Mark Foley (covered up by the White House/Rove), 9/11 Workers Health Risk suppression, shooting people in their face then obstructing an investigation, pay for positive political coverage, the destruction of Iraq antiquities, lack of body armor, up-armored Humvees, and training. Walter Reed. U.S. attorneys purge. Scooter Libby and destruction of the covert CIA Brewster-Jennings operation. Less water & electricity in Iraq than under Sadam. The botched execution. Record opium production. The stagnant stock market (markets hate instability). The pitiful state of health care in America; ditto education. The sinking of America's middle class. 3000 dead American soldiers in Iraq, 30,000 wounded, $1 trillion wasted, 650,000 dead Iraqis, 2 million Iraqi refugees. Osama still on the loose and the Taliban still strong in Afghanistan. Kim Jung Il has nukes. China holds a huge part of our debt. Putin is having people assassinated on American soil. Bush is trying to start a war with Iran, who probably couldn't have nukes for ten years. The Saudis are still grooming terrorists. The destruction of Colin Powell. The destruction of the National Guard. Recruiting felons. The world hates us.

#7 tommo on 2007-03-19 10:54 (Reply)

Golly.

Just wanted to pipe in on the Barone piece- he's such an eminently sane commentator and historian who doesn't indulge overwrought, self-punishing perspective, as some do.

Isn’t it strange how the self-esteem movement in education (“Everyone of you is special just because!”) is never applied to helping children respect the nation at large and embrace the idea of American exceptionalism? Apparently, and in this case only, it’s best to tell schoolkids and university students how bad and inadequate the US government and policy are and how we really shouldn’t consider ourselves a single people under one flag. Most are taught to scoff at American ideals, obsess over our failings as defined by ideologues and spoiled dissenters, and to see themselves as members of ethnic-racial-gender-orientation-disability-age-eye color-etc. identity groups first and foremost (and which are also “special”, just because).

We must diss America, because dwelling on our nation’s negatives real and imagined is the truthier and more sophisticated way, and the only way to make better citizens. Better world citizens.

(full disclosure: Euro-Caucasian-female-straight-proofreading impaired-none of your biz-blue-gardens & guns-hyphenated-American here who is proud of our Eagles.)

#8 anon on 2007-03-19 11:07 (Reply)

The American people can no longer support Bush.

#9 John Ryan on 2007-03-19 11:19 (Reply)

Love that anon wench.

Tommo, the only way a country or an administration could avoid giving you raw material for such a manufactured witch hunt, would be to throw you in the gulag. That's the way it's usually done, in most of elsewhere--if you're lucky. So, the truth is, you're fortunate to live in such a crappy nation, under such a crappy government.

#10 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 11:22 (Reply)

Yes, the world hates us. That's why voters in democracies have recently elected or will soon elect, pro-American leaders in such trifling nations as Australia, Canada, Mexico, Germany, France, England, Japan, all over the Pacific Rim, most of Latin America, most of Eastern Europe, and, uh, the USA itself.

#11 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 11:28 (Reply)

And John Ryan, you're wrong. I know for a fact that most Americans do support their leadership. You're peddling foolishness, Comrade.

#12 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 11:31 (Reply)

Buddy Larsen writes:

"And John Ryan, you're wrong. I know for a fact that most Americans do support their leadership. You're peddling foolishness, Comrade."

I thought that in just about every recent poll, support for Bush on pretty much every front was under 50%. Mr. Larsen, can you explain how you arrived at your conclusion that Americans support their leadership?

Here are links to a site that aggregates recent polls:
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
http://www.pollingreport.com/bush.htm

#12.1 justin case on 2007-03-19 11:49 (Reply)

How can Americans be claimed to support their leadership when all recent polls have Bush's approval rating under 50%?

#12.2 justin case on 2007-03-19 17:44 (Reply)

Whoa. tommo has got his rant down. Good synopsis. I am going to copy it and save. IMO, many of those allegations are 'fish in a barrel' for the '08 election.

Lock and load.

#13 Patina on 2007-03-19 11:34 (Reply)

madmatt, at the end of WWII there were about 20 democracies on the earth. Now there are about 120.

Maybe you assume that "indigenous people" would be better off without a voice?

Operating in a data-free environment is pretty lazy, don't you think?

#14 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 11:37 (Reply)

Patina, yes, he missed not a single talking point. The other side, the 'pro' side is long, too, being as any admin has a record to either shoot or salute (would there be enough pixels under the sun, to apply the tommo method to the Clintons?).

#15 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 11:52 (Reply)

"Operating in a data-free environment is pretty lazy, don't you think?"

Deep down, and don’t ask how they reconcile it, many critics wish to operate in a human-free environment. No people, no probs, no mistakes, no sin, no decision, no history, no arc of civilization, no appreciation, no joy.

So, OK, I’ll take wench :)

#16 anon on 2007-03-19 12:00 (Reply)

Try to grasp this concept.

We don't blame America, that's absurd. We blame Bush and his failed policies. We criticize Bush because he's hurting the Country we love.

See the difference?

#17 AkaDad on 2007-03-19 12:01 (Reply)

This is a little off point, but from my point of view it will be the next horrific obstacle to freedom. As some of you may be aware the leadership in the "women's movement" has used many tools to abuse straight Anglo/American males. These tools include, but are not limited to the destruction of academic careers for refusal to work with a particular woman;the harassment of wives and children; fiddling with bank accounts, retirement accounts, and having the local IRS constantly harass. In other words the "women's network" is ORGANIZED and they use women anywhere in any position as flunkies. Usually, they prey upon their willingness to help women get ahead, or they talk them into doing dirty tricks by offering support for their next move up the career ladder. Like I said this network is powerful. It is modeled after the Jewish network, and these gals have learned how to manage their own network well. However, what I am concerned about is what is coming down the road. I heard today about the presidential candidates using places like My Space to reach the younger generation. Apparently, you have to ask other members of this network to be your "friend", before you can contact them. Some candidates are already claiming between 20,000 and a million "friends". How easy it is now with this nameless network of young, eager, naive, and willing supporters to be asked to do one dirty little deed. For example: currently, when I call Jim McDermott's office (representative from Seattle), and register my opposition to gay marriage, I will be talking to a member of the gay community working in his office. The very first question is this: "where do you work". So they already have convinced thousands of people that they have a right, in deed a duty to play dirty tricks on somebody, who does not agree with you. But, now with this new technology they can have a much larger, more invisible network.

#18 apple pie on 2007-03-19 12:09 (Reply)

American exceptionalism = America has an exceptionally large number of douchebags for a population of only 300 million people

#19 Robert on 2007-03-19 12:20 (Reply)

Akadad--yes, i see the difference.

I also see 911, and what a few more of those of those would have done--would still do--to the global commonweal.

I also see a USA-led world economy growing robustly and lifting a cool billion or two little folk out of poverty, for the first time in human history.

I also see a mideast that, with all the ongoing difficulty, is better off now--with 55 million more freemen, for starters--than it was in yr 2000, when its apparent peace was only peace to those not paying any real attention, and which was undergoing a lethal pressure build which in the bleeding off is much nastier than that nice "peace" we seem to some to have had before.

Your error IMHO is in assessing the need for the major surgery of OIF.

If i had never read any history, and had no knowledge of historic process or human nature, i'm sure i'd agree with your position.

And, what would YOU have done, come 911? Be brief, but specific. Surely you can spare a few sentences to help enlighten your fellow citizens.

#20 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 12:28 (Reply)

Robert, ouch--that was really witty.

#21 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 12:31 (Reply)

I will admit, akadad, that BDS is hurting the country.

I guess the only way around that would've been to just let Al Gore have his way with election law in Florida 2000.

But since America saw it another way (rule of law and all), and Al Gore didn't get to steal the presidency, then to hell with it, let's just have us some Sharia for the rest of time. Right?

#22 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 12:48 (Reply)

Buddy

Briefly, I wouldn't have stopped until I got Bin Laden "dead or alive".

#23 AkaDad on 2007-03-19 12:52 (Reply)

Blame America First is great for bumper-sticker analysis, but in the end it's another straw man attack and therefore dishonest.

I see this Blame America First thing all over the place, but I never see any proof that anyone is blaming America first or last. Oh sure, you might find Rosie O'Donnell talking out of her ass, but serious people looking at serious issues? I challenge anyone to find a liberal comment that says 9/11 was caused by America. Unlike Falwell and Robertson who think 9/11 was caused by liberals, or Newt Gingrich blaming Susan Smith's murder of her children on liberals (until he found out her stepfather, a right wing GOP activist, had been abusing her for years, then he shut up.)

No, I think what you call Blame America First is really what I call holding my government to account for things done in my name.

Did having troops stationed in Saudi Arabia cause 9/11? No. The terrorists caused 9/11. But we should know what motivated them and identify those things we can control and those we can't.

But discussions about the consequences of our foreign policy require more than a bumper sticker.

For the record, I thought so much of this country that I enlisted out of a sense of duty and obligation to serve. That was in 1969, when some of the GOP stalwarts had other priorities. It's easy to support the troops when all you have to do is slap a magent on the back of your car.

I love my country enough to speak up when I think it's gone off the rails. You may call that blaming America. I call it patriotism.

#24 David Terrenoire (Link) on 2007-03-19 13:05 (Reply)

Somebody please clarify: I believe that the draft was still in effect in 1969, is that correct?

#25 apple pie on 2007-03-19 13:16 (Reply)

"But it could be said about a lot of Americans, especially highly educated Americans, today."

So education is a bad thing? You might want to tell Bill Gates, he hires lots of highly educated people and it seems to have worked out tolerably well for him.

"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." -Tom Paine

"Place your clothes and weapons where you can find them in the dark." -Robert A Heinlein

"An armed society is a polite society." --Robert A. Heinlein,

"Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not make messes in the house."
--Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love", (Robert A. Heinlein)

"Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded- here and there, now and then- are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.This is known as "bad luck."." -Robert A Heinlein

"Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run, these are the only people who count." -Robert A Heinlein

#25.1 Jonathan Hoag on 2007-03-19 13:23 (Reply)

Hey Buddy Larson, your side tried to get the Clinton's, remenber?

There was a $17 million investigation into the alleged corruption of Agriculture Secretary Mike Espy that ended in his acquittal on all counts. There was an 18-month probe into Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt that ended when the independent counsel said she could find no evidence of illegal activities. There was a two-year-long investigation into Labor Secretary Alexis Herman that ended with the independent counsel's decision not to prosecute her. There was the probe into the firing of employees in the White House travel office; it ended with accusations against Hillary Clinton but no criminal charges.

A decade-long investigation into whether HUD Secretary Henry Cisneros lied about payments to a mistress during his background checks did lead to a guilty plea on a misdemeanor charge and then a pardon from Clinton, and the independent counsel complained that the Clinton administration had blocked a more thorough investigation. But then there was the $80 million Whitewater probe, which started as an investigation into the first family's pre-Washington land dealings and ultimately turned on whether the president lied about getting blow jobs.

Here's some more rightwing criminality:

Lester Crawford - Commissioner, FDA - resigned after only two months on the job. Pled guilty to conflict of interest and making false statements.

Brian Doyle - Deputy Press Secretary, DHS - Resigned in wake of child sex scandal. Pled no contest to 32 criminal counts.

Claude Allen - Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy- resigned, pled guilty to shoplifting from Target stores.

David Safavian - former head of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy at the Office of Management and Budget - convicted of lying to ethics officials and Senate investigators about his ties to lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Larry Franklin - intelligence officer, Defense - resigned, pled guilty to passing secrets to Israel.

Roger Stillwell - desk officer, Interior Department - pled guilty to failing to report Redskins tickets and free dinners from Jack Abramoff.

Frank Figueroa - senior DHS official, former head of anti-sex-crime Operation Predator - pled no contest to exposing himself to 16-year-old girl in Florida mall. Girl says he fondled himself for ten minutes. Figueroa forfeited his badge, gun, and access to databases; employment status pending internal DHS review.

Darleen Druyun - senior contracting official, U.S. Air Force - pled guilty and sentenced to nine months in prison for her role in the Boeing tanker lease scandal.

John Korsmo - chairman, Federal Housing Finance Board - pled guilty last year to lying to the Senate and an inspector general. He swore he had no idea how a list of presidents for FHFB-regulated banks were invited to a fundraiser for his friend's congressional campaign. On the invites, Korsmo was listed as the "Special Guest." Got 18 months of probation.

P. Trey Sunderland III - chief, Geriatric Psychiatry, Nat'l Institute of Mental Health - admitted to a criminal conflict of interest charge for failing to report $300,000 received from Pfizer, Inc. As of 12/11/06, still employed by NIMH.

Resigned Due to/Pending/After Investigation

Carl Truscott - Director, Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Bureau - resigned. A report by the Justice Department's Inspector General found that Truscott wasted tens of thousands of dollars on luxuries, wasted millions on whimsical management decisions and violated ethics rules by ordering employees to help his nephew with a high school video project.

Joseph Schmitz - Inspector General, Defense - Resigned amid charges he personally intervened to protect top political appointees.

Steven Griles - Deputy Secretary at the Interior Department - resigned, currently under investigation by the Justice Department forhis ties to Jack Abramoff.

Susan Ralston - assistant, White House - resigned amidst revelations that she had accepted thousands of dollars in gifts from Abramoff without compensating him, counter to White House ethics rules.

Dusty Foggo - Executive Director, CIA - stepped down following accusations of corruption in connection to the Duke Cunningham scandal. Under investigation.

Janet Rehnquist - Inspector General, Department of Health and Human Services - resigned in the face of allegations she blocked a politically dangerous probe on behalf of the Bush family.

Ken Tomlinson, Board Chairman, Corporation for Public Broadcasting; member, Broadcasting Board of Governors - resigned at the release of an inspector general report concluding he had broken laws in spending CPB money to hire politically connected consultants to search for "bias" without consulting the board. At BBG, a separate investigation found he was running a "horse racing operation" out of his office, and continuing to hire politically-wired individuals to do "consulting" work for him. He's still there.

George Deutsch - press aide, NASA - resigned amid allegations he prevented the agency's top climate scientist from speaking publicly about global warming.

Richard Perle - Chairman, Defense Policy Board - resigned from Pentagon advisory panel amid conflict-of-interest charges.

James Roche - secretary, U.S. Air Force - resigned in the wake of the Boeing tanker lease scandal, after it was revealed he had rather crudely pushed for Boeing to win a $23 billion contract.

Marvin Sambur - top contracting executive, U.S. Air Force - Druyun's boss, Sambur resigned in the wake of the scandal. Investigations cleared him of wrongdoing.

Philip Cooney - chief of staff, White House Council on Environmental Quality - a former oil industry lawyer with no scientific expertise, Cooney resigned after it was revealed he had watered down reports on global warming.

Thomas Scully - Administrator, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services - shortly after Scully resigned in 2003, an investigation by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Office of the Inspector General found that Scully had pressured the agency's actuary to underestimate the full cost of the Medicare reform bill by approximately $100 billion until after Congress passed the bill into law. Scully was also charged wtih conflict of interest allegations by the U.S. attorney's office for billing CMS for expenses incurred during a job search while he still headed the agency. He settled those charges by paying $9,782.

Michelle Larson Korsmo - deputy chief of staff, Department of Labor - Helped her husband (see Frank Korsmo, above) with his donor scam. Quietly left her Labor plum job in February 2004, about two weeks before news broke that she and her husband were the targets of a criminal probe.

David Smith - Deputy Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife, and Parks, Interior Department - resigned after shooting a buffalo and accepting its remains as an illegal gratuity. He eventually paid over $3,000 for the dead buffalo, but only after the internal inquiry had commenced.

Sean Tunis - Chief Medical Officer, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) - Last summer, the State of Maryland suspended his medical license because he faked documentation relating to his medical education. Despite that, he stayed on board for several months at CMS, albeit on administrative leave. He has since been replaced, although it's not clear when because CMS did not announce the switch and has not responded to our calls.

Nomination Failed Due to Scandal

Bernard Kerik - nominated, Secretary, Department of Homeland Security - withdrew his nomination amidst a host of corruption allegations. Eventually pled guilty to a misdemeanor relating to having accepted improper gifts totaling tens of thousands of dollars while he was a New York City official in the late 1990's.

Timothy Flanigan - nominated, Deputy Attorney General - withdrew his nomination amidst revelations that he'd worked closelywith lobbyist Jack Abramoff when he was General Counsel for Corporate and International Law at Tyco, which was a client of Abramoff's.

Linda Chavez - nominated, Secretary of Labor - withdrew her nomination amidst revelations that an illegal immigrant lived in her home and worked for her.

#26 tommo on 2007-03-19 13:21 (Reply)

AkaDad, if you're a conservative, think ideological trending and action to stop the virulence post 9-11, and not just individual culprits and police chases. Both approaches are necessary and the missions difficult to accomplish. We're really good but not gods. So we keep at it like men, like smart grown-ups who know it'll take some time and certain sacrifice, and who also know we can’t all agree on the particulars of how to go about safeguarding our future. Some of us need to yield to decisions made in good faith after voicing our concerns.

Buddy, why aren’t more men such as yourself teaching at our universities? The teaching of historical detail, trends, values and big picture thinking from a traditional/ enlightened American POV has given way to revisionism, deconstruction, deprecation and mass myopia from a wishful, really non-existent “global” perspective. We need soldiers on the academic front, too!

#27 anon on 2007-03-19 13:21 (Reply)

apple pie,

Yes the draft was in effect in 1969, but 2/3 of Vietnam vets were volunteers.

http://www.vietnam-war.info/myths/

#28 Jonathan Hoag on 2007-03-19 13:28 (Reply)

I don't blame America - America is the Greatest Republic this world has ever seen.

I blame you and all the traitors to the Constitution like you who are addicted to stealing our tax dollars and giving them away to your criminal cronies, the Merchants of Death.

The story was the same during WWI (and after when you tried to overthrow FDR ina military coup), and WWII (when Bush's grandaddy committed treason by financing the NAZIs), and Korea and 'Nam - you feel "entitled" to all that tax funding, and that's a "welfare mentality" this Great Republic cannot afford to indulge.

#29 fiskhus jim on 2007-03-19 13:30 (Reply)

Yo, commenters! Keep it up. Good fun.
Those Heinlein quotes - very cool. Will use 'em.

Re Vietnam: everyone I knew who went there volunteered, including two who quit college to volunteer as grunts.

#30 BD on 2007-03-19 13:35 (Reply)

Jonathan:

I don't believe everything I read on a website. I do however care very deeply about the Viet Nam vets. Equally important to me is that we not re-write history. I would challenge those numbers. As for those who volunteered: I think it could be proven that those who volunteered came out of rural areas, i.e. Montana, New Hampshire, etc. I lived in a large city and worked for a charter airline at the time--plus my first husband was there. Those seats on World airways were primarily occupied by draftees. The men who served in Viet Nam do not need to live with any deceptions in order to please the liberal left media.

#31 apple pie on 2007-03-19 14:01 (Reply)

Fiskhus Jim,

Sorry, but that’s not terribly clever jujitsu, the bit about the war-mongering, war-profiteering death-dealing Right being entitlement-happy welfare queens who steal our tax monies and are the ruination of our great Republic. Suppose we’re also “drug pushers and addicts” for supporting the pharm industry and “hippies” for fighting for free speech over speech codes and suppression, etc.

#32 anon on 2007-03-19 14:06 (Reply)

tommo, that sort of stuff is DC and changing parties does little to ameliorate it, sad to say. I'm not a GOP-defender, I'm a lesser-evil supporter. These days, because of economic and foreign policy, I'm scared of the Dems, so that makes me an administration supporter by default. Improve the choices, and there'll be fewer people defaulting to fear of the loons (see 'fiskhus jim') who seem to be in control of the Dem party these days.

Anon, para one, that's really well said. Para two, (blush), thanks.

Lover the Heinlein quotes, too!

David, the troops were in KSA due to the Jihad's invasion of Kuwait. So your otherwise fine post falters on a bit of circular reasoning--or better said, your buying AQ's circular reasoning. But even accepting your arbitrary start to a timeline, 911 as the jihad's form of political dialogue is you must admit problematical as a template for a tolerable ongoing relationship.

#33 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 14:07 (Reply)

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, buddy. Yes, our troops were stationed in Saudi because of the invasion of Kuwait (although I'd disagree that there was a religious of jihadist element to Saddam's invasion. That had more to do with Saddam's identification of Kuwait as a wayward part of Iraq - purely political).

But AQ said it was our presence near Medina and Mecca that prompted 9/11. I think they would have found another excuse if that one didn't play, but that's another story.

As for Vietnam, I spent my tour in Central and South America. That had more to do with my Spanish and my knowledge of Latin America than anything else. If I spoke French maybe things would have turned out differently.

But I don't understand apple pie's question about the draft. I enlisted, but if I had been drafted would that make my service any less honorable? I hope that's not what you're trying to say.

And as we used to say about ourselves, the only men on active duty during the war were "niggers, hicks and spics." In case you're wondering, I was one of the hicks.

#33.1 David Terrenoire (Link) on 2007-03-19 14:36 (Reply)

I thought it was old Joe Kennedy who loved the Nazis. Not that it matters.

#34 BD on 2007-03-19 14:17 (Reply)

Are you clowns from Maggie's Farm for real? Intellectually challenged would be an understatment. Especially loved the rantings of the guy who's connected the "women's movement" to a conspiracy via MySpace. Classic wingnut echo-chamber idiocy. Adjust those foil helmets people!

#35 Mark on 2007-03-19 14:19 (Reply)

Hey, Mark, thanks for the museum tour of almost every outdated internet catch-phrase. Enjoying your new computer?

BD, I wouldn't call old Joe a Nazi-lover--but it's a historical fact that he advised FDR not to support England with any war material, since it would simply end up in the hands of Hitler, because England had no chance of winning. He was soon thereafter replaced as ambassador, needless to say.

#36 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 14:27 (Reply)

Buddy,

I'm working on a book that takes place in December of '41 and I've found plenty of people on both sides of the aisle who wanted FDR to stay out of the war. That's why he did an end run around Congress with the Lend-Lease - ("We'll let you borrow these bullets if you give them back when you're done.")

But the primary opponents of involvement in Europe were Republican, led by Mr. Republican himself, Taft of Ohio.

There were a lot of people, Republican and Democrat, who could have acted with more honor than they did.

#36.1 David Terrenoire (Link) on 2007-03-19 14:46 (Reply)

David, i don't think apple pie was impugning your service. I'm an old South America hand myself--in fact Venezuela mostly, in the oil patch, as a consultant to CorpoVen. I saw a good deal of Cubans and Sandinistas in my travels down there, in the 70s and early 80s. Helped me form opinions about the results that flow from political ideas.

On topic, I've got to say, your statement

"But AQ said it was our presence near Medina and Mecca that prompted 9/11. I think they would have found another excuse if that one didn't play, but that's another story"

is not really "another story", but--IMHO--is THE story.

Follow the implications of what you yopurself say, and you almost have to wind up looking at the Jihad more-or-less as the administration looks at it (granted that in the details and commentary there is endless room for endless rat-killing and wool-gathering).

#37 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 14:49 (Reply)

Sorry buddy boy. Let's do sum subsitutin' then...
wingnut = right wing loon
echo-chamber = circle-jerk
foil helmet = whack-job
Gee Buddy, is that better?

#38 Mark on 2007-03-19 14:49 (Reply)

No, Mark, I'm too stupid--what is this strange language of yours "for"? Is it meant to entertain? Teach? Insult? Persuade? Or is it simply the best you've got, as something to type before you type your name?

#39 buddy larsen on 2007-03-19 14:57 (Reply)

Buddy,

You'll find that for a liberal, I'm quite a hawk on this subject. My problem is, I see it differently than the administration. I think they've thoroughly screwed the pooch on this war against the Jihadis. Some may say I suffer from BDS, but it's really anger over incompetence.

They told us the war would be over quickly and would cost us nothing, zero, not a dime. Here we are 4 years later, thousands dead or wounded, 500 billion dollars poorer.

I don't know about you, but when I was young I bounced a few checks, but I was never so wrong as to bounce one for half a trillion bucks. That's major league bone-headed.

If anyone had asked me (and they didn't), I would have insisted that this war was so important that it required sacrifice in the form of higher taxes and maybe even a draft. I would have put another 30-40 thousand troops into this surge. That's how important I think it is.

It might be because I have two nephews in theater now, one a Major with a Stryker Brigade, the other a surgeon with an FST. I want them both home and whole and the way this administration is fighting this war, they'll both be back for another tour, maybe two (the Major is on his third). So I'm angry for my country and my family.

Hell, I'm so mad I'm surprised my hair hasn't caught fire.

#40 David Terrenoire (Link) on 2007-03-19 15:02 (Reply)

Jeanne Kirkpatrick wasn't right about anything in her entire career.
And perhaps buddy, if you could divert your attention from celebrating the stupidity of others how about a detailed solution to Iraq?
I suppose it is more fun to stand around declaring your self righteousness but that doesn't shut the mullahs down now does it?
and PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER ? That is some braintrust right there! Just keep shooting right?

#41 chopski on 2007-03-19 15:06 (Reply)

chopski,

That's not entirely true. Kirkpatrick did support Clinton going into Kosovo.

I remember Rush was against it and Kirkpatrick was for it, so no matter where I came down I'd be in the company of someone I knew was wrong more often than he/she was right. Not a comfortable place.

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Monday, March 19. 2007

The protest, the counter-protest, and the Blame America First crowd