We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.
Boycott Israel. It's a great idea if you're angry at Israel for developing a strong economy and thriving culture. You may be upset at them for invading Gaza, and you can support the right for Palestine to have their own nation. Truth be told, Israel and the UN have offered Palestine a nation several times, and each time been rebuffed. Israel also isn't happy about returning to Gaza. Remember they removed all Israeli settlers, and the IDF, years ago with an understanding that it would be demilitarized. Funny how that worked out.
Point is, for as much aid and support Palestinians have received, they've not achieved anywhere near the development that Israel has. There are a few ways to think about that.
First you can blame Israel for "keeping them down." This, of course, is nonsense. Playing the victim card is always the easy path for people who don't want to apply rigor or effort. I've been to Israel. Spent a week working there, and saw many Palestinians and Muslims living in Israel happily and free. One who I happened to work with (at an Israeli start up) pointed out that the best way to compare the Palestine situation is to compare it to the blacks in the US. But, he pointed out, there are clear differences. Still, there is nothing holding them back, inasmuch as there is nothing holding back black people in the US. Of course, the experience of each would provide you with some examples of what they believe holds them back. I'm not going to say who is correct. I can easily point to many instances where my future was 'held back' by a variety of things. None were my ethnicity. So I won't comment further on this - I'm neither Palestinian or black - but my guess is we can all make excuses if we really want some. Blaming others is chickens--t and an easy path to avoid thinking.
Another path is to claim Palestinians lack, or are deprived of, education. I find this a little odd, too. Many would often protest on my campus as far back as 1980. I'm not sure how they arrived on campus if they were being deprived. I know education is strongly endorsed in their families. Education is funny, though. Some of the best educated people I know aren't immune to falling for, endorsing, or perpetrating "misinformation". So being educated doesn't necessarily mean knowing truth or having wisdom. If it did, then blaming Israel or blaming education levels wouldn't be a tactic I'd apply.
You could blame the lack of infrastructure and support. Palestine receives massive amounts of humanitarian aid and support, though. Infrastructure in Gaza has be put in multiple times. Strangely, it seems to disappear. Pipes get pulled up and converted into rockets and money is often diverted for weapons. I wonder what would happen if these investments were utilized for productivity rather than warfare? I imagine Gaza could develop a lot more quickly? Nah, that's crazy talk. Better to have the weapons to 'defend' against those nasty Israelis, who seem to bomb Gaza every time it bombs them.
Meanwhile, Israel keeps moving forward. If you haven't watched Fauda, I recommend doing so. It's an Israeli program about undercover operators. It happens to be one of the most popular series in the Mid East. There is an excellent point, about midway through the series, where a former PLO terrorist, now PLA authority, takes his son to lunch. The son is considering joining the extremists. With his credentials, he travels unencumbered through Israel and they have lunch by the Mediterranean. He points out the buildings and asks the son what he sees. The son replies he's not sure - targets? The father says, no. These are homes for people who just want to live their lives. That Israel has developed businesses (see link above), that Israel is the most Western nation in the region. They were building while Palestine was trying to destroy. He told his son the Israelis aren't leaving, so the best option was to try and find a way to live in peace with them. For what it's worth, Israelis often look bad in Fauda. I give the producers credit for putting forth a message which points out that engaging in distasteful behaviors are simply part of what is required to push back against extremists bent on your destruction.
So go ahead, and boycott Israel. It's pretty hard to do today. Much of what has been developed there is in heavy use now. My reason for visiting was because of a now massively popular software program which they'd developed. My firm purchased it and sent me there to help develop it further. Today a lot of what we use in that space today is the result of work done in Tel Aviv. I happened to be there during the Intifada. During Passover. It was a great experience.
Ultimately, if Palestinians, or Hamas and Hezbollah in particular, REALLY WANT to stop Israel, the best way would be to outdo them in the market. Develop your nation, develop your economy, develop your products. The rest of the Mid East, so heavily reliant on oil, is realizing oil can't last and is diversifying as rapidly as possible. Single resource economies, even if it's a great resource like oil, eventually hit a breaking point. They've opted to play catch up in the best way possible. Why hasn't Palestine? Hamas and Hezbollah.
Hamas and Hezbollah are stuck in the past. They aren't the future. That's why events like October 7 are so hideous. They prove only that these groups are not Palestine, nor are they Palestine's future. They are anchors holding the people back. Saying "I support Palestine" is fine - so do most people, so does Israel. What Israel asks in return is peace and opportunity. Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran by default, say "NO! We want peace and opportunity, but without Jews and Israel." That is the cornerstone of their efforts.
While each loss of civilian life in Gaza is a stark tragedy, who is really to blame for the loss of those lives? I wouldn't blame Israel, which goes out of its way to implore residents to leave prior to its attacks. They know what the outcome will be. Sadly, Hamas is not unlike the Mob. They use and abuse citizens for their own ends and means. They use human shields. They need to make it look like terrorism by forcing people to stay. That's how they develop their PR.
Sure, boycott Israel. But I prefer understanding the history and motivations behind what is happening there. The more I've learned, the less I blame Israel. I don't blame Palestinians, either, most of whom just want to live their lives in peace. I blame criminals and murderers who just want power on their own terms.
To make my point, just take a look at some of the final comments.
One is from some troll who lives in his mother's basement and, as usual, utilizes information and data unrelated to the post and the commentary I made. You'll notice the point of "victimhood" was addressed in post. This is akin to the troll pointing out that people in prison all consider themselves 'victims' even though the vast majority of them committed crimes that landed them there. "Hey - just to be 'fair' prisoners ARE victims even if the reason for their victimhood is justifiable." This obviously proves the troll is an anti-semite who likes to parse language.
The other is clearly an anti-semitic troll spewing an opinion which has limited validity.
Bulldog: information and data unrelated to the post and the commentary I made
The claim at issue is that "there is nothing holding them {the people of Gaza} back", so it is related.
Bulldog: people in prison all consider themselves 'victims' even though the vast majority of them committed crimes that landed them there
The vast majority of people in Gaza didn't commit or contribute to the criminal attacks against Israeli citizens. The people of Gaza don't have a say in their government, and children are not responsible in any case.
We had offered that you might defend the reasons for the blockade, but the claim that nothing is holding back economic development in Gaza is false.
I will not respond to the trolls on here directly since they are undeserving of direct response. As I pointed out several times (particularly the one time long ago when I was personally attacked and I wrongly deleted its commentary), it is misinformation and I will stand by that statement without responding directly. The lies spread by this anti-semite are reprehensible and disgusting. And they are lies. Any troll can provide a claim and a 'fact' to back the claim. Because lies of this nature will always have a kernel of truthiness.
But any person of sound mind and deep understanding of the history would know and recognize just how wrong it is to make outlandish statements. Repeating it doesn't make it "fact" or "right". It just proves that the troll loves rationalization to push an agenda.
You must be referring to someone else. We always endeavor to address the argument and do not engage in personal attacks. Our position is plainly stated and supported.
I don't place any other nations over AINO but what about all the children killing in a small area with 50% children?
Civilians just trying to live day to day had nothing to do with an obvious state military style attack.
Would any of this occurred under Trump?
Like JFK said, weakness and disunity is the sure fire path to war.
Gaza voted for Hamas to represent them just as we voted for Biden to represent us. If the results seem unacceptable then I suspect better representation is in order rather than more of the same.
Perhaps the end result is that it is too late for voting to make any difference. The die is cast?
Technically, that's not true. Nobody 'voted' for Hamas.
It's true some support it - usually based on lies and PR Hamas spreads.
Others don't support it, but have no choice because Hamas keeps a gun to their head.
In technical terms the PLA 'represents' the Palestinians, and even saying they were 'voted for' is a stretch - but at least they are somewhat reasonable. Sadly, if they haven't been infiltrated by Hamas, Hamas makes their ability to function properly nearly impossible.
It's an ugly situation. But blaming the Palestinians for Hamas is like blaming a store owner for the deal he had to cut with The Mob, in many cases.
The "Palestinians" will live in peace when the Palestinian mothers and fathers decide to love their children more than they hate the Jews.
For most in the West who want to boycott Israel or are anti-Israel the reason is simply that Hamas and the "Palestinians" are better at propaganda than Israel is. Hamas intentionally sets up the battlefield so that it is impossible to attack them without killing innocents. The "Palestinians" willingly and eagerly choose to put their children in the line of fire so they can die for Allah and make Israel look bad on the international stage. Civilized people cannot imagine it so they believe what Hamas and a lot of the MSM tell them and blame Israel for all the deaths and destruction.
There is no possibility of a two state solution. That old adage that the war will end when you kill so many that they stop fighting is the only way this will end. IMHO Israel should do it now. The provocation is serious enough to justify killing and driving Hamas out of Gaza. Destroy any and all of their tactical infrastructure and end it.
The IDF should run the biggest pumps that they can from the ocean to all the tunnel entrances and keep them running for the next 6 months. Drown them, make sure you keep the tunnels flooded in case they have some air tight chambers and impress on all terrorists that tunnels are drowning traps.
It's worse than that. They are apocalyptic Islamist organizations dedicated not just to the destruction of Israel but also, in their wider strategic "vision", the subjugation of the entire non-Muslim world.
This video is a little out of date - IIRC Betterplace went bankrupt. Newer stuff like intelligent car cameras and autonomous driving are not mentioned. Israel is also tackling the decline of world honeybee populations and innovating in dairy and fish farming.
And of course there's a lot of military technology, some of which leads to civilian products (like those smart car cams based on military real-time image processing).
This kind of thing boosts morale but I doubt that it convinces anyone, especially at this point...
A popular meme circulating here duplicates the 'i am not a robot' security screens by asking "select all images of Innocents" - from among photos of masked Pali gunman and Israeli children. The button has been changed from "I am not a robot" to "I am a human".
It's never been easier to distinguish good from evil. Certainly there are some low information, uninterested people out there. But the educated people supporting Hamas at this juncture will only be convinced when they see the sword unsheathed against them.
To be honest that is what it took to wake up many "liberal" American Jews - and others in the chattering classes who get a frisson from toying with violent revolution.
JJM: Being under an economic blockade doesn't make you a "victim".
It does, if you are not responsible for the causes of the blockade. You might defend the necessity of the blockade, but that doesn't address the claim at issue. The claim that nothing is holding back economic development in Gaza is false.
All these recitations conveniently leave off the proximate cause that precipitated the Israeli action - those Joo Meanies just swooped in and blockaded!
Contextless victimhood is all the Left has left.
No aggression, no expectation of agency and responsibility from non-Whites (which is a kinda off-again, on-again definition when dealing with the Joos, depending on the narrative... )
Just the racism of low expectations, and the colonialism of explaining for the darkies what they reallly mean and really want...
Ben David: All these recitations conveniently leave off the proximate cause that precipitated the Israeli action
Well, no. The original question concerned whether "nothing is holding back economic development in Gaza," which is false. Nor did the Palestinians choose Hamas. Hamas seized power in Gaza. Just before the recent attacks, polling showed that most Gazans would rather be under the Palestinian Authority (70%), most were against breaking the ceasefire (62%), and half (50%) were for a two-state solution. And those opinions were after years lacking the freedom to criticize Hamas, Hamas propaganda, and an economic blockade. The Gazan people are victims of Hamas, and they are victims of the current war.
Those who committed crimes against Israeli citizens must be held to account. Israel has every right to defend itself. But Israel must also be accountable for their actions when it involves ethnic cleansing or attacks against civilian populations.
Gaza shares a border with two countries, not one. And has a coastline. I don't believe Israel turned back or seized ships or boats with non-miliary cargo. Further, given the massive amounts of international aid Gaza has received every year for years, without massive corruption and a useless culture, it would be a prosperous country along the line of Singapore.
James: And has a coastline. I don't believe Israel turned back or seized ships or boats with non-miliary cargo.
Israel has blockaded sea trade. Most everything can be considered military cargo, including concrete, metals, electronics, etc., all essential for economic activity.
You are correct that political dysfunction has greatly exacerbated the problem (which may be Bulldog’s bent).
Despite that "blockade" Gazans have managed to build massive infrastructure and bring in large numbers of weapons. Blaming Israel for the plight of Gazans is an excuse used to avoid taking responsibility for their own failures, not an explanation.
James: Despite that "blockade" Gazans have managed to build massive infrastructure and bring in large numbers of weapons.
Many of their weapons are makeshift. But it takes open borders to trade to develop economically.
However, you are correct that many imports were diverted to military purposes. As noted previously, one can reasonably consider the reasons for and the wisdom of the blockade but not the actual existence of the blockade.
Israel is the last of the European colonial projects. It, and the European Jews, were imposed on the local population by Britain, without any regard to the rights of the local people.
Nowadays, having conquered 7 million Palestinians (mostly Muslim, but with some Christians), Israel operates a National Socialist apartheid state. The current Israeli government consists of the most extreme racists that can be found anywhere. They have publicly announced they will ethnically cleanse the whole region from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea of all non-jews, both Muslim and Christian.
Leaders in the Israeli government have called the Palestinians (again, both Muslims and Christians) animals, and have said there are no Palestinian noncombants. Killing all Palestinians is justifiable.
In our own country, and in our own government, psychopaths like Nikki Haley and Lindsay Graham have said that genocide of the Palestinians is justified.
The US and Israel are the monsters here.
By the way, Russia has stated that Israel, being an occupying state, has no right to self-defense under international law. Neither did the Nazi occupiers of France, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway...
Yes, to be clear, I am comparing apartheid Israel to Nazi Germany.
The only useful year to remember is 1948. That's when the people of Palestine first exercised sovereign power themselves.
Jewish Palestinians exercised that power by declaring themselves the State of Israel within the boundaries defined by the UN partition plan and turning themselves into Israelis overnight.
Arab Palestinians exercised that power by rejecting the partition plan and, in concert with the Arab League, attacking the nascent State of Israel, which failed - and failed so miserably that Israel came out of that war with nearly 50 percent more territory.
By the way, no one much cares what the duplicitous Russians have to say about anything these days. That country beclowned itself utterly on the world stage with its own bungled and cack-handed 2022 attempt to invade Ukraine.
1. Israel is the only place on earth where Jews are NOT colonialists. Dig in the ground and the coins and shards have Hebrew on them.
2. Israel was founded despite the apathy of European nations, and with zero financial or military support. The early Zionists were not proxies of any colonial power.
Back under your rock - or off to Unz - back you go Bob!
Ben David: 1. Israel is the only place on earth where Jews are NOT colonialists.
Well, per the Bible, Abram immigrated from Ur, and people were already inhabiting the Promised Land.
Ben David: Dig in the ground and the coins and shards have Hebrew on them.
Jews certainly have a historical tie to the land. However, so do the Palestinians. The genetics of paternal lineage (y-chromosome) show a close relationship between Jews and Palestinians.
If one cites the OT as history, one ought acknowledge that modern Palestinians cannot be descended from the inhabitants of the pre-Israeli occupants of the Holy Lands, as per the OT.
James: one ought acknowledge that modern Palestinians cannot be descended from the inhabitants of the pre-Israeli occupants of the Holy Lands, as per the OT.
The genetic evidence is that the y-chromosomes of Jews and Palestinians diverged in the late Neolithic. You may presume, if you like, that it occurred at the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael.
Then you're taking a cafeteria style approach to using the OT as history. As I said, if the OT is history, modern Palestinians cannot be descended from the pre-Jewish population. Since those people produced no descendants.
James: if the OT is history, modern Palestinians cannot be descended from the pre-Jewish population. Since those people produced no descendants.
Genesis 17, 20: And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Stop being dense. I said the inhabitants of the area the Jews settle after Moses lead them to freedom. If you're going to treat the OT as history, then logic demands that people who are exterminated do not produce offspring.
You are way too prone to make absurd claims and defend them in the face of the clear demonstration of their absurdity.
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At this point, you may want to revisit the genetic y-chromosome data, which shows that Palestinians nest more closely to Jews than to most neighboring Arab groups. It's amazing, when you think about it, that the Jewish paternal lineage was retained during centuries of diaspora. It shows that both Jews and Palestinians have deep genetic roots in Palestine.
"The early Zionists were not proxies of any colonial power."
Indeed, when the early Zionists went out to what would become Palestine as a delineated entity only after WWI, the region was ruled by the Sultan in Constantinople - hardly a European "colonial power" - who was perfectly entitled to decide who could or could not settle in his sovereign territories.
Well. Palestinas are allowed to run for and hold office in Israel, including its national legislature. Have the same legal rights as Jews. Enjoy more prosperity and freedom than Palestinians in any other middle eastern country. Hard to see how that amounts to an apartheid state. As for the racist charge, that is absurd on multiple levels. Palestinians the same race as 99% of Jews. Although there are some black Jews in Israel who would tell you that the Palestinians are racist.
Which raises the question, how do you think Jews were, are would be treated in Garza? Or most/all middle eastern countries? Worse than Gazans are treated by Israel for certain. As is illustrated by how badly the Palestinian Christians you speak of are treated. But you're extremely selective in your moral outrage.
Further, until you provide credible links of Israeli or American advocating for genocide or calling Palestinians "animals," I'm going to call you the liar you almost certainly are.
Lastly, you're morally broken because you're blind to or lying about the respective moral status of the two waring cultures. Jewish culture is simply far superior to Palestinian culture. Jews have made massive positive contributions to modern civilization, while Palestinians have made many negative contributions and no notable positive contributions. In a war between barbarians and civilized men, I root for the civilized men every time.
If you find any of these assertions objectionable, get thee to a Moslem majority middle eastern country. And never return to the west.
The Palestinians already have a state of their own, two in fact: Gaza and the West Bank, both generously subsidized by the rest of the world, and both of which are absolute crapholes anyway.
