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Wednesday, February 15. 2023Disinformation and InformationI was recently on a webinar about Disinformation and what the media and governments are 'doing' about it. I found it both interesting and, in and of itself, misleading (in other words, it could have been classified as 'disinformation').
Disinformation - the actual dissemination of a false narrative for nefarious or other specific purposes, are the critical component in psychological operations and warfare. Operation Mincemeat and the Patton's First Army group were critical components in reducing loss of life and helping to win WWII. In real life, there are methods to spot and slow, as well as reverse, true disinformation. Anyone who believes a pedophile group was operating out of a pizza shop should probably have their head examined - and it was debunked early and often. That said, plenty of people still believe in Q, which is absolutely beyond my comprehension as to why. However, when you consider the alternative(s), which is the standard media and government line, it's not that much of a stretch to think there could be other, better, resources for information. There are. But I'm not so sure Q is a good option. Regardless, the minute government gets involved in fighting disinformation, and people demand laws to "suppress" disinformation and misinformation, what is really being said is that REAL information will be suppressed or fought against. That is "anything I disagree with represents misinformation and disinformation and needs to be prohibited." And we're seeing a lot of that. I was at a recent lunch where a person asked "How can anyone question Fauci? What makes them think he's so bad?" I looked up and said "Perhaps he brought it on himself for spreading misleading and false information." They were stunned that I said this. Except I provided point after point of documented lies and misleading data he'd provided - including his emails and conversations trying to silence the professionals who signed the Great Barrington Declaration, or the lies to Congress about NIH funding of gain-of-function in Wuhan. Even with this, the others I shared lunch with thought I was the nutjob... I am left wondering, today, what disinformation and misinformation really is and why people really, really want to stop it. It has existed for millennia and we're none the worse for it as a world population. Truth, as a result of truly free speech, has a funny way of debunking flat-earth conspiracies (even if many still choose to believe). Which is probably why people want to limit free speech. They really believe they have a monopoly on 'truth'. Or truthiness. Or "my truth" (whatever the hell that is). So it's better to limit what YOU can see or hear because that makes THEIR 'truth' more likely to win out. After all, Marxism and Socialism has "never really been tried before" and its past implementation was so good people like Bernie Sanders actually HONEYMOONED in Moscow! So you know that's a very good recommendation! Yet here we are, with a government that has spent hundreds of millions to shoot down balloons and unidentified objects recently, all making the news and garnering a lot of attention. And still, today, the White House admitted most of these were probably private in nature. In other words, not a threat. But GREAT PR to make Biden look tough and "looking out for us." Meanwhile, I kept asking "what other news are they seeking to avoid people paying attention to?" Perhaps it was the news that more evidence the US destroyed Nord Stream? Inflation gearing up again? I don't know. But I do know that when I attend webinars and "experts" say that we need the government to "do more" to "stop" disinformation because it is a "threat to democracy" I get very, very worried. The "government" is not a single entity that is consistently doing things in our best interest. Rather, I'd propose it's seeking to subjugate you and me. It does not care how. So "stopping disinformation" is as good a means as any, and getting the population to fear it and hate it and ask for laws to limit speech - well, that's right out of the Leninist/Maoist playbook. It's not like the Woke/Cancel/CRT crowd aren't anything like the old people who perpetuated the Cultural Revolution, is it? Trackbacks
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Three things make this issue worse now:
1. Increasing specialization means people know more and more about less and less - but think themselves knowledgeable because of their own narrow expertise. 2. Technology has advanced to the point where a layman cannot even understand the other expertises on which he depends. Who understood what a mRNA vaccine was? 3. More and more of our life experiences and relationships are mediated rather than direct - and those experiences are not written accounts subject to mental critique, but extremely hi-res, immersive, convincing audiovisual experiences that totally bypass critical faculties and are processed as reality. That is, they shape our notions of what is real and normal just like authentic reality. This is why incoming college students are convinced that 20 percent of the population are homosexual, instead of less than 2 percent. It's also why they have no idea how much work things take in reality - the boring blood, sweat, and tears are compressed into a photomontage sequence in most films. It's also why this autistic, glued-to-their-screens generation is being ravaged by porn addiction and other diseases of isolation.. I understood what an mRNA vaccine was, and I'm still having a hard time understanding any of the theories about why it might have been harmful. The statistical correlations between vaccination and harm deserve study, but it all still strikes me as iffy. I plan to reserve judgment on vaccine harm for quite some time yet as all that sorts itself out.
Might want to read Fauci's latest journal article. He pretty much brings down the house on the chosen technology. Essentially he says mRNA was the wrong technology to be effective. Regarding safety issues, might want to look at the whole cleaving proteins thing. No one yet has made the convincing cause and effect linkage, but the mechanism is an amazing smoking gun.
All through this, I kept asking "what other news are they seeking to avoid people paying attention to?"
I think it was to cover up this: BOMBSHELL: Yep, It Looks Like Team Biden Blew up Europe's Nord Stream Pipeline https://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individuals/seymour-hersh/ The timing was about right. Seymour Hersh's story looked awfully plausible to me, but it was a single anonymous source. I'm not ready to be convinced yet.
It was probably the first time your lunch companions had ever had their opinions questioned. Oh, they had heard the talking head on the tv say that people like you exist. How shocking to actually be in the same room with one. And he talked to me! I wonder what shocked them more, the fact the you actually said bad things about the narrative, or that you made so much sense? Maybe you got through to a few of them. Good for you.
There has been a few stories floating around about students not being able to read, write, or do math at their grade level. It really makes me wonder how any sort of freedom can long survive. Why are so many humans perfectly willing to be lead around by tyrants? Why are otherwise intelligent people so willing to be slaves? Because that is what you are, when you are unwilling to question the narrative and step out of line, speak truth to power, you are a slave. No, I don't think that was it. I mean they knew I was no dyed-in-the-wool NYC ultra Progressive. I'm certain they knew I may have at least been sympathetic to these "alternative" views.
After all, one of them was someone who (5 years ago) told me she was shocked to learn I was Libertarian. I think the real problem is two of them have relatives who work at pharma companies, so all they'd hear was fawning admiration for the 'wonderful' Fauci. They never heard the alternative at all. One said to me "I understand what you're saying - but I've never seen any of what you claim in the news." I replied "of course not. You're stuck on the nightly news and the New York Times - a "paper of record". Your assumption is they would never lie or mislead you. Yet they did - and you're not asking to see or hear the alternatives." Both of them looked at me as if I had two heads. To ask to see alternatives? I am sure they were immediately thinking of the concept of "alternative facts" - which, of course CANNOT POSSIBLY EXIST once the majority has decided which comfortable lies should be 'factual'. I finished the lunch by saying we're living in a world where comfortable lies are preferable to uncomfortable truths - so we opt for what's easy. I've always felt going for what's a little more difficult pays bigger dividends. In Neal Stephenson's "Fall", ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall;_or,_Dodge_in_Hell ) he posits a future in which nothing on the internet or other delivered-info network can be believed on its face because "fake" is so real. So, people sign on to various "curators", services and individuals which have gone through and done their best to confirm or deny information and filter out bad sources. Fact-checkers, as it were.
And so America ends up completely divided between blue and red. No overlap at all between what they each hear and read. Worth reading. (This is merely one subplot in the book.) Heck, all NS is worth reading. "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" comes to mind. Though factually and unequivocally refuted as an outright fraud, it is still widely used in Islamic cultures to vilify Jews and as a justification for terrorism.
Who's really running things? The Jews? The Illuminati? The WEF? The Lizard people? Somebody's running things, right? We'd rather believe malign forces are running things than believe the truth, that nobody's really running things. It's a chaotic world because everybody's pursuing their own self-interest and these things often conflict with one another. So how do you know who's speaking the truth? Your best bet is to question everybody's motives and keep a little bit of doubt about everything. You may be just as wrong as the next guy.
Governments have no business being involved in "anti-misinformation activities". Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
And as for disinformation (i.e., the English calque of Russian dezinformacija), this sort of activity ought to be strictly defined and reserved for use against external enemies in times of conflict. JJM: Governments have no business being involved in "anti-misinformation activities".
Governments putting out information is a core function. How could it be otherwise? "Yesterday, December 7, 1941—a date which will live in infamy—the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by the naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan." And to clarify the relationship between information and disinformation:
QUOTE: Reporter: Mr. President, there's a rumor that the Martians attacked Pearl Harbor. Is that true? FDR: I can neither confirm nor deny that the Martians have attacked Pearl Harbor. Headline: MARTIANS ATTACK: President Sphinx Hints at Extraterrestrial Invasion More than anything, I think, I dread coming out strong for a position on weak evidence and then being shown to be a fool. My own self-interest requires me to go carefully and skeptically. Of course I'm often guided by first impressions if time is short and the stakes low, or even if the stakes are high and there's no choice but to take a flyer, because perfect skepticism on all matters simply paralyzes.
So much could be said, but a big problem is people want there to be Loch Ness Monsters.
If anything, the last three years should help us come to grips with the fact that possibly a majority of us are not too mentally well. We are not able to live off the land, so to speak. We are not engineered to be highly skeptical and forgiving, which are the only real antidote to all the fakery, foolishness and received wisdoms that occupy modern life. We also forget the rush that comes from pulling stuff over on others. We underestimate the power of this psychological gaming and how essential it is to those with "meaning of life" problems. Some is ok and essential, the good face we put on things. But the bad is manipulative and psychotic. And it's all around us. Agreed. More facts does not equate to more wisdom.
I notice that someone tried to make a case for why government should be involved in fighting disinformation by commenting that government puts out information - it's what it does...and tries to make the case that words from government officials are then twisted by journalists. I think we've been clear here at Maggie's that, by and large, NEITHER journalists or politicians can or should be trusted. That using skepticism and common sense will go further than just accepting "prevailing wisdom" from "experts". The fact remains government should NOT be fighting misinformation simply because the "information" it puts out is, largely, misinformation of some kind - designed to pursue a political end or goal. As you say, a form of psychological manipulation. The trust was being lost for years. Real governance can only exist based on credibility and trust. Without that, there's nothing to govern with but force and lies. So that's pretty much where we are. And some, like that commenter, are pretty darn happy about this turn of events, it seems. I'll add this. Anyone attempting to definitively differentiate between misinformation and information is missing the point. All misinformation exists because there's a modicum of truth or fact involved.
As a result, any attempt to say "this is what misinformation absolutely IS" will fail because basically what you're saying is "I know it when I see it." But that's just you using common sense and knowledge, along with well-honed skepticism. OR you're already a victim of the misinformation and locked into a rigid mindset. One is obviously preferable, but can't be well defined. The other is just flat out wrong but often comfortable and believable. So it survives. Sometimes for a long time, other times less so. Bulldog: The fact remains government should NOT be fighting misinformation simply because the "information" it puts out is, largely, misinformation of some kind - designed to pursue a political end or goal.
So, Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor? Try to answer the objection: Governments putting out information is a core function. How could it be otherwise? And while healthy skepticism is essential, rejecting everything as misinformation is not healthy skepticism. Bulldog: That using skepticism and common sense will go further than just accepting "prevailing wisdom" from "experts". Common sense is not always a good way to judge scientific findings, which often challenge common sense. I'll help ...
1) Who says information giving is the government's business? It's primary functions are to defend the realm, set rules of the road, arbitrate disagreements, and then punish rule-breakers. 2) Skepticism is the weapon ... require the argument and the data to be convinced. And, by all means, be skeptical of common sense! Nat Brooks: 1) Who says information giving is the government's business?
Providing information is intrinsic in all branches of government. It's hard to even imagine a government or political process without sharing of information. And, in the U.S., the executive is explicitly required to provide information to the legislative branch. Common law also requires the executive to provide information to the judicial branch as required. Nat Brooks: It's primary functions are to defend the realm, set rules of the road, arbitrate disagreements, and then punish rule-breakers. And how can it do that without providing information?
In the words of Officer Gannon: "Just the fact ma'am."
Pearl Harbor - Fact; COVID Masking - Making up *^%$ because they believe themselves to be potentates of information.
#10.1.1.1.1
Nat Brooks
on
2023-02-16 16:13
(Reply)
Nat Brooks: Pearl Harbor - Fact; COVID Masking - Making up *^%$ because they believe themselves to be potentates of information.
So, to the point raised, government can and does provide information.
#10.1.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2023-02-16 16:32
(Reply)
Z - “ How could it be otherwise? And while healthy skepticism is essential, rejecting everything as misinformation is not healthy skepticism.”
My very wise Swedish grandfather always said “… once someone has shown themself to be a liar and/or an a****le you can always count on them to do it again” Was it Maya Angelou who said “when someone tells (i.e., shows) you who they are, believe them the first time”? “Rejecting everything” from such people transcends “ healthy skepticism! I do not respond to trolls.
To put it bluntly, putting out information may be part of the government's job. LIMITING, OR DEFINING what "information" is "good" or "bad" IS NOT ITS function. I think I've been pretty clear, but some trolls are so unhinged they don't pay attention. Bulldog: I do not respond to trolls.
If, by troll, you mean legitimate disagreement. Bulldog: To put it bluntly, putting out information may be part of the government's job. LIMITING, OR DEFINING what "information" is "good" or "bad" IS NOT ITS function. The government shouldn't limit free speech, however, they do get to put out information and contest misinformation. It's absurd to claim otherwise. QUOTE: Reporter: Mr. President, there's a rumor that the Martians attacked Pearl Harbor. Is that true? FDR: I can neither confirm nor deny that the Martians have attacked Pearl Harbor. Headline: MARTIANS ATTACK!!: President Sphinx Hints at Extraterrestrial Invasion I'll disagree with this; the "troll" is paying attention and understands perfectly well what you're getting at.
It's simply doing what it generally does--deflecting from your point and trying to make the argument about something else. It's a tactic that wouldn't be allowed on a middle school debate team, but here we are. yes. you are correct.
Childish tactics, which it has used on every occasion in the past. It's not above ad hominem behavior, even if it hasn't engaged it recently. What is really funny is that it says it's the government's job to put out information (really often misinformation) and contest misinformation. I actually never said that it shouldn't do either - just that a healthy skepticism and use of common sense was helpful and useful.
As it oddly then states, government shouldn't limit speech - and yet IGNORES the points I had made, none of which were saying that government shouldn't put out information - but that I felt people calling for government to monitor and limit "misinformation" was problematic, just as we'd seen on Twitter , Facebook, etc. The obvious facts are that the government IS TRYING TO LIMIT SPEECH. Denying that only proves how obtuse this strange being is. Also, FWIW, the people who rely on common sense and skepticism are hitting at about a 20 to 1 win rate for the last 4 years or so.
While both have flaws and aren't always reliable, I'd argue they are more reliable than a government or set of "experts" who sit there and tell you what is or isn't "good" information. It's not like the government, Twitter, Google, Facebook or even current AI programs are exactly doing a bang-up job in that role. But by all means, trolls exist to be idiot bugs in the system...keep pushing the idiot agenda. Does anyone else find it interesting that there is someone whose sole function in life is to show up here and pretend to be smarter than every single one of you?
This troll has nothing better to do in life but show up where it isn't wanted, where it isn't helpful, and is literally monitoring the site to act as nothing more than a 'rebuttal engine' - much like the Facebook and Twitter "fact-checkers". And as such, they are typically incorrect or misleading in some way. But you know - this is the role of "misinformation experts" like this troll. It's a fascinating study.... At least I only show up because I get notifications of responses to posts. I don't monitor every post diligently and respond multiple times a day. It's a sad testimony to a life of someone living in their parent's basement and living on information they've gleaned from Reddit or a few music blogs. The Troll is Maggie's own Cliff Clavin. A constant, blowviating, Internet search dweeb. A self-professing Expert On All Things Of Importance To The Left. I'm sad for him that he appears to have no life outside of Maggie's comment system. But my optimistic nature wants to believe he will grow up, move out of his parent's basement, get a job and become a worthwhile citizen.
I noticed the troll did his typical BS later, claiming I used "disinformation" and then diverting the discussion to a path it considered 'informative' while hoping to 'debunk' much of what I wrote.
Problem is, I'm laughing now. Because in its attempt to make me feel stupid and inadequate - it inadvertantly SUPPORTED the points I was making, while completely missing the point on several of its comments. Since I don't respond directly to morons, I'll leave it here and thank it for proving it is so much less clever and intelligent than it thinks. Clearly sitting in the basement with nothing better to do all day has taken its toll on the brain cells of this lump of fat, water, carbon and oxygen. Government isn't in the business of putting out information. It is in the business of governing, and providing for national security, and fostering the principles and philosophies of the current ruling philosophy.
So, government puts out "information" in ways that serves that role. Sometimes that means putting out accurate information. Sometimes, it means putting out inaccurate information - "disinformation" if you will. So, we're faced with trying to discern which is which. Which "disinfo" release is for purposes of helping preserve our national security and advantage (such as wartime misinfo to fool enemies)? Which "disinfo" release is for purposes of trying to sway the populace into what the governing people have determined - in good faith - to be the best mode for handling issues such as pandemics ("mask up!" for purposes not so much of masking us but of convincing us that things are serious)? And, worst of all, which "disinfo" is designed to secure partisan advantage in the always-hot fight for the next election? So if government lies publicly about having bombed the NS pipeline, maybe we accept that so that we don't end up watching mushroom clouds. If government lies about masks being effective, we're less accepting, but understand that they wanted a "wartime" footing against Covid. And when it lies about Trump so that fewer people vote for him, well, then they've gone too far. The record lately has not been good, and so now I'd verify if they told me the sun would rise tomorrow. They've blown the deference I would normally give such people. My comment seems to have disappeared, even though replies to it still exist.
If you meant the first one, it's still there. I see it.
The troll seems to think it provides "legitimate disagreement" yet it does nothing of the sort. It is an annoyance which seeks to divert discussion down paths IT prefers rather than engage ACTUAL dialogue. I know because back in the day when I did engage it, it often resorted to the ad hominem behavior I am now engaging. In fact, I called it out several times and finally told it that I was done with engaging it directly. It refused to acknowledge its own: 1. misbehavior 2. ad hominem attacks 3. misdirection/redirection of a conversation 4. its frequent use of logical fallacy It seems to think it is a higher power. Someday, the sad truth will hit it. I can see already its presumed intelligence is slipping because it fouled up its entire disagreement here and actually wound up illuminating my points and supporting the direction I'd taken it. It simply hasn't realized this yet. It's worth noting the troll must have literally nothing to do all day.
I'm willing to bet it shows up again to respond to me. Simply because it has to have the last word, and 'prove' it is the smartest lump of carbon. I may lose that bet, but I doubt it. This is the last I'll say here about it. I actually feel badly for the troll. It kind've exists in a strange alternate reality. Bulldog: claiming I used "disinformation"
The title of the post is "Disinformation and Information." We were attempting to avoid diverting to specific cases while addressing disinformation generally. We agree with your position in part and disagree in part. Bulldog: Since I don't respond directly . . . Nonetheless, you respond, but fail to address any of the relevant points raised. You had conflated government fighting disinformation with laws to suppress free speech. It is intrinsic to government to disseminate information, which necessarily entails contesting misinformation. How could it be otherwise? It is inevitable that the incentives of individuals will sometimes differ from those of the group (much to the chagrin of Alan Greenspan). Consequently, government officials will sometimes use disinformation for nefarious purposes. However, the solution proposed above is that government should never address misinformation or disinformation or even provide information at all! That leads to the absurd results detailed above (e.g. President Sphinx). Bulldog: 2. ad hominem attacks 3. misdirection/redirection of a conversation 4. its frequent use of logical fallacy Where did we engage in ad hominem? If we misdirected the conversation or engaged in fallacious reasoning, don't just claim it is so, but show it. "If we misdirected the conversation or engaged in fallacious reasoning, don't just claim it is so, but show it."
No. We have no obligation to engage, show our work, or otherwise take you seriously. Our claims are good enough and need no further effort. Bulldog: What is really funny is that it says it's the government's job to put out information (really often misinformation) and contest misinformation. I actually never said that it shouldn't do either - just that a healthy skepticism and use of common sense was helpful and useful.
JJM and Nat Brooks claimed that government should not be in the business of providing information. No one else called out the absurdity of that position. And that is what we addressed in our initial comments. What you claimed was "putting out information may be part of the government's job. LIMITING, OR DEFINING what 'information' is 'good' or 'bad' IS NOT ITS function." But, of course, it is. If there is a rumor of a Martian invasion, it is the job of the government to provide the facts, even if those facts contradict what you heard on Fox News. Bulldog: The obvious facts are that the government IS TRYING TO LIMIT SPEECH. How so? Bulldog: Disinformation and Information
You make some good points, even though you pepper your essay with misinformation. Bulldog: Disinformation - the actual dissemination of a false narrative for nefarious or other specific purposes, are the critical component in psychological operations and warfare. Disinformation is also used in law enforcement. Government disinformation has to be tightly controlled, such as by statute. Outside of those constraints, it can erode accountability and trust. Bulldog: Regardless, the minute government gets involved in fighting disinformation, and people demand laws to "suppress" disinformation and misinformation, what is really being said is that REAL information will be suppressed or fought against. Govermment fighting disinformation, such as by putting out accurate information, is not the same as suppressing disinformation. Bulldog: I was at a recent lunch where a person asked "How can anyone question Fauci? That's not government suppression. Regardless, the government can certainly ask (but not demand or coerce) media to not propagate misinformation and disinformation. Bulldog: It has existed for millennia and we're none the worse for it as a world population. Misinformation and disinformation are part of the human condition; as is how people fight against ignorance and lies. Speaking of "misinformation", the Zachriel bot has just stated that I "claimed that government should not be in the business of providing information".
For the record, here's what I wrote at Comment #7 above: "Governments have no business being involved in 'anti-misinformation activities'." And so the Zachriel has effectively been hoist with its own pétard right there by spreading a falsehood. JJM: "Governments have no business being involved in 'anti-misinformation activities'."
Ignoring our response isn't an argument. Z (from above): to clarify the relationship between information and disinformation: QUOTE: Reporter: Mr. President, there's a rumor that the Martians attacked Pearl Harbor. Is that true? FDR: I can neither confirm nor deny that the Martians have attacked Pearl Harbor. Headline: MARTIANS ATTACK!!: President Sphinx Hints at Extraterrestrial Invasion To say that the government can provide information means they can contradict misinformation. How could it be otherwise? The basically fun, informative, anodyne, nonpolitical Maggie's Farm has a troll?
Wow. There must be an oversupply of trolls, sloshing out of the overtrolled politics sites to find less-crowded homes. |