Referenda vs. Representative democray

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Tuesday, June 28. 2016

Referenda vs. Representative democray

The biggest problem for governments is the people they supposedly work for. A great annoyance, and frequently an obstacle to Progress as they see it.

'WaPo': Brexit Shows Some Things Shouldn't Be Decided by the People

Interesting topic. It usually only comes up when an establishment consistently deviates far from the majority. In the case of the UK, the politics are special: Cameron was elected in part by promising a referendum on EU membership. So their national election was, in effect, a referendum on a referendum. It seems to me that, if national sovereignty can not be held to a referendum of the citizens, then nothing can be presented to the direct will of the citizens.

Posted by The Barrister in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 15:50 | Comments (13) | Trackbacks (0)

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#1 jake on 2016-06-28 16:52 (Reply)

sometimes its necessary, obviously, to reject the will of the people, and other times its necessary, again obviously, to let a small group make certain kinds of decisions.

#2 Donny "The Bear Jew" Donowitz on 2016-06-28 19:32 (Reply)

Let me guess; lawyers.

#2.1 Ten on 2016-06-28 20:38 (Reply)

I was thinking almost anyone but you.

#2.1.1 Donny "The Bear Jew" Donowitz on 2016-06-29 07:37 (Reply)

I get the sacred trademark ire against all things and persons defiled and un-American, Donny BJ, but the nicest thing about when you express a sound legal principle is just how universal it is! It's almost like the lack of specificity makes up for the fact it hasn't a molecule to do with original structuralism.

Why, here's one: The elite, having found the masses revolting, dissolved them and elected another. Yahtzee!

Alas, anybody but us rubes, and like that. Humbly Yours, etc.

#2.1.1.1 Ten on 2016-06-29 07:53 (Reply)

I assume that when I post here I'm talking to reasonably educated adults who don't need to be spoon fed basic knowledge.

go ask your caregiver if since you're having reading comprehension problems.

ok, you've used up your weekly five minutes of my time.

#2.1.1.1.1 Donny "The Bear Jew" Donowitz on 2016-06-29 08:31 (Reply)

basic knowledge

Folks, as well as he hides it, Donny BJ does actually serve a valuable function. Let's consider.

Note first the characteristic rock-ribbed defense of all traditionalist American themes and memes. If it's part of the war or post war national ethos, Donny BJ is all about holding feet to fires and rites of passage and arm-flexing. There is to be no divide, no dissension, no revisionism. Get onboard, pay your dues, check under all beds, molon labe, and like that. No filthy [slur]s or [slur]s invited or allowed, godammit.

But then we gain insight into a phenomenon unique to certain, um, educated persons, that of the personalized, internal stare decisis, to coin a phrase: What it is you think you know just isn't so as long as there are Experts in the room. And they shall go before you. Because they already have gone before you. See?

Herein you civilians and rubes and unwashed should actually brook no independent free thought amongst your unwashed selves, for don't you know that your betters have filtered all that's structural, well, and good through their unique lenses? It's what they do.

They do it through their great and privileged libraries of the tomes of the wisdom of the ages, the very wisdom you inherently don't and can't access aimed at protecting you from yourselves. It's serious. Why, without them you wouldn't know How Things Work. Think of them as your Popes of structuralism, and you their tithing parishioners. Or as the folks with whom you register your weapon of mind lest it go off somewhere.

This we call Basic Knowledge. Which isn't basic knowledge, the stuff you people deal with. So when Donny BJ & Co generalize, it's up to you to know the difference and genuflect. That shit didn't come cheap.

Think of this special tier of intellects as a valued service: Fully allowing and even supporting your red, white, and blue sensibilities but preventing you falling into the trap of our own pig-headed preconceptions about principle, honor, nationalism, the law, and [gasp] independence.

Wouldn't want you out hurting yourself somewhere.

#2.1.1.1.1.1 Ten on 2016-06-29 11:07 (Reply)

And yet, in the end they all turn out the same.

If only there were experts. We could call them cabals.

#3 Ten on 2016-06-28 20:49 (Reply)

I have to laugh helplessly at the mindset it would take to conclude that someone other than the citizens of a country should be entrusted with the question of whether their nation should be sovereign. The EU has all the hallmarks of an organization that would build a perimeter wall and point the guns facing in--a sure sign of a diseased organization. But there are always people whose dearest wish is to emulate North Korea and Cuba in this respect, for the good of others, of course.

#4 Texan99 on 2016-06-28 22:45 (Reply)

Cuba is an excellent example of a walled=in country with the guns turned upon itself. Politics cool between Castro and The 0, Cubans start fleeing that Castro-designed Utopia as fast as possible, by any means possible, through any route possible.

Not one of my U.S.-refugee Cuban friends, who actually said in the past that they longed for their country of heritage, is going back to luxuriate there.

#4.1 jma on 2016-06-29 11:12 (Reply)

The Brexit blockers: Bitter losers from all parties gang up to plot to stop Britain's exit from the EU - which was voted for by 17 million people

British and European politicians are plotting to block UK's exit from the EU
As Labour went into meltdown, campaign started for a second referendum
Tony Blair, Nicola Sturgeon, and pro-Remain MPs said rethink was needed
A top Brussels diplomat has said he thinks the UK will never quit the union
Sir Richard Branson calls for Parliament to look again at Brexit result

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3661258/Bitter-Brexit-losers-gang-scupper-EU-pull-17-million-voted-for.html

#5 feeblemind on 2016-06-28 23:03 (Reply)

Way to go, WaPo.
I've come to expect nothing less from you.

/s

#6 Alan Robertson on 2016-06-28 23:47 (Reply)

Certainly the Founding Fathers were deeply distrustful of democracy, designing a government where all (at the time) but for the House of Representatives was appointed (Gov's appointed Senators; President elected by electoral college, Judges appointed by President with advice and consent). That said, the one point where the democratic vote of the people was at its zenith of importance was in approving the Constitution or changes thereto.

With that in mind, let's review the history. The EU tried to make themselves into their current form in 2005 with the EU Constitution, something that triggered, as it should, referendums in the member nations. PM Gordon Brown promised the people of Britain a referendum as well, but it was never held as the EU Constitution was scuttled when France and Holland voted against it in their own referendums by wide margins, if I recall.

The EU, never one to let democracy get in the way of European domination, relabeled the Constitution the Lisbon Treaty, thus allowing the countries to permanently sign over the sovereignty to the UN without having to bother with the unwashed masses. I was amazed that the Brits didn't rise up in revolt when Gordon Brown signed over his country's sovereignty to the UN without the promised referendum.

The bottom line is this. Even our Founders understood that the one time democracy is necessary is when approving the basic social contract by which the people agree to be governed. Anyone that does not understand that needs to be dealt with by tar and feathers.

#7 GW on 2016-06-29 08:26 (Reply)

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Tuesday, June 28. 2016

Referenda vs. Representative democray