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Saturday, July 11. 2015
Times haven't really changed. But views and perspectives certainly have.
We are in a better economic place today than we were during the Bush/Reagan debate. Yet, somehow, the conversation has devolved. There is a problem today - but it's the same problem it was 35 years ago. In fact, the question was about "the problem" of illegal immigration.
We don't need to just welcome them in, but a path to citizenship for those who work hard should be available.
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I don't think because you snuck over (illegally) here and you work hard, that you in any way deserve a path to citizenship. What is the rationale for that? For everybody else, while they were over here legally, they studied and jumped through a lot of hoops to become citizens. How is that fair? Is there some basic human right to United States citizenship?
I'd say that at the time of the video, the Mexican government wasn't encouraging people to sneak over here so they could send dollars home rather than build a good economy in Mexico so they wouldn't want to leave. It is astounding to me that a government would argue for another country to take their citizens off their hands - and argue hypocritically because they are lobbying for treatment of their citizens who want to sneak over here that they would not afford to our citizens if they wanted to openly immigrate to there.
Immigration laws should be to benefit the country and it's citizens, not the immigrants.
1. Illegals are here doing jobs people here usually won't. The ones that work hard and can't find jobs aren't hurting because someone is willing to paint a fence or clean a bathroom.
2. A path to citizenship should always be available to anyone willing to work for it. It's absurd to look at our past, with its proud history of immigration (most of it, by today's standards, illegal) and suddenly say "it's different this time". It's not.
3. Criminals should be not be allowed entry, a path to citizenship, and should be deported.
Sending dollars home has happened in every generation of immigration. It's not bad for the U.S. to have this happen. In fact, it's desirable. We're not in competition with other nations, we should seek to continue to improve ourselves.
People who come here and are willing to work are fine. The freeloaders are the problem - but that's the existential problem DaveP suggests "caused" this issue today. So let's end the giveaways. That should stem a good portion of the tide.
Funny that many people will say "Bush this, Reagan that" but toss this one in the ring and they head for the hills.
This 'jobs Americans won't do' is BS. There are 35 million here now. Why not just bring in billions of the worlds poor? It is the Nice thing to do.
A few of thoughts:
We have a problem (and open immigration won't fix it) when we have jobs we don't want to get our hands dirty doing. Part of that is that we are rich enough to pay someone to do it and another part is that we pay people enough not to work that they don't see the need to. Europe had a similar situation a few decades ago. They were happy to import a bunch of cheap Middle East labor but now, they're going to loose their culture. There were too many coming too quickly and they weren't getting assimilated. We should stop making that mistake.
We also have a problem with our low birth rate. In my opinion, this is a good reason for encouraging immigration, but it must be controlled.
We have the only country that gives citizenship to people who were born here (I think that is still true). There used to be a province in Canada that gave citizenship to people born there (that may still be the case). I believe we do this because the Fourteenth Amendment is misinterpreted. The province in Canada did it to increase its population. I would change that by either reinterpreting the Fourteenth or repeal that part of it. I don't think we need baby tourism.
In the past, we would always accept those who were escaping political persecution but not people coming for economic reasons. This tended to bring in like-minded people. This is important since our country is an idea more than just geography. People who wish to become citizens should be assimilated, as legal immigrants who get their citizenship do. We have more than enough people who are ignorant of our government who vote now. We don't need more.
I'm not against immigration and eventual citizenship (or their sending dollars to their relatives - I just meant to point out the motivation and hypocrisy of the Mexican government). I'm not against work visas for those who want to stay here part time, but I think it all has to be controlled. Breaking the law to get here should not be an acceptable way to start the process. The welfare state and the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment complicate matters. Otherwise I would be much closer to your position (and I'm not sure that after you boil it down, we're all that far apart on much of it).
Crossing the border without permission is no different than entering your house without permission. The fundamental act makes every "illegal alien" adult a criminal.
So, then, yes, send all the criminals back to wherever they came from.
How is it FedGov's problem to solve if there were indeed "jobs Americans won’t do"? We can’t know what Americans will or will not do if invaders are here doing it for them. And we do not enjoy the benefits of technological progress that might see that work done in a different way if we just keep throwing foreign opportunists at the problem.
Maybe silliest of all about this liberty-minded apologizing is the idea that we (or our border agents) can tell which immigrants will be productive and which will just be more weight to carry. It's fun to say we only want the good ones. But once they're in, it's too late. Then we’re counting on more bureaucratic processes and legal wrangling to sort it out. Deadweight loss.
...and you don't recognize that today's existential disaster has its roots in the sofheaded permissiveness towards illegals of the Reagan/Bush era?
The path should be to return from whence they came and get at the end of line.
Anyone who can't show they are here legally should be deported. No exceptions.
Not necessarily, but the 2nd time we have to deport a multi-felon, we should shoot them in the foot before putting them on the plane back.
Here in sanctuary Long Island life is grand! My workers ( Americans) can not afford to have as many children as they wish due to financial constraints . Our happy undocumented workers have as many as they wish. Thanks to social services,
they get free housing, medical treatment, food stamps, and
schools send tutors to teach the little children English to attend school. How much are these poor undocumented people costing us? The real kick is that they are taking over
all the low cost housing that Americans just starting out
used to rent or buy.
it's next to impossible to get a residence permit (and a work permit), let alone citizenship, if you try to come over legally (and yes, I've tried).
So why should it be made easy (possible at all even) for illegals if they can just show they have a job?
Make legal immigration easier, and blacklist illegals for life as well as systematically deporting them.
Also put in place serious penalties for any company employing them (taking away their business license should be just the start), any landlord renting property to them, etc. etc., as well as rewards for people turning them in (and people reporting such employers and landlords).
Make it pay to employ legal immigrants and residents/citizens while making it hell to employ illegals.
It is not original, but the truth of the matter is that if one has a welfare state, open borders are suicidal. Period. Paragraph.
If one does not have a welfare state, one can afford to be a bit, ummm, flexible about who enters the United States, except in the case of Imperialist foreign enemies using that latitude to invade and/or destroy your country. I of course am referring to the radical Muzzies.
The fantasy of open borders is an abrogation of the obligation of observing reality and dealing with it. Failure to conform one's actions/policies to reality is a recipe for suicide, a trip to the dustbin of history.
I have seen a number of people seek legal citizenship, most recently a family from London and a family from Denmark.
It is difficult, and takes years. My daughter has a talented Mongolian colleague who is working on legal citizenship.
My advice to them is to call yourself Jose and wade thru the Rio Grande.
Yes, illegals are doing the jobs Americans don't want to do -- murder, rape, driving under the influence, drug trafficking, growing illegal plants in crop eyebrows, avoiding paying full taxes and so on.
Illegal Immigration in 2015 is hurting our nation.
Stop defending it.
Stop whining about it.
Stop parsing American history.
Insanity is trying the same thing over & over again and expecting different results.
As the video points out we tried amnesty first without securing our borders. It didn't work. How about we try to secure our borders first and then decide what to do with the people who are here illegally?
Legal immigrants should be welcomed with opened arms.
Well, Reagan did get amnesty but the government betrayed the people on the border control.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me
Not to mention, the US of A was a far less socialist country in 1980. I've come to see that a multi-racial socialist country is untenable. If we were free market capitalist with limited government (so law and regulation were difficult to use to impose discrimination, see slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, minimum wage laws, etc) then competitors would be able to take advantage of any discrimination businesses engaged in.
And we can throw in the fact that the socialist policies of the last two decades have caused increased competition for the jobs the illegals under cut.
But a managed "guest worker" program with strict controls on criminal behavior and entering the welfare rolls and a path to citizenship could work.
We have strict rules on illegals now. However, the Federal Court system doesn't take felony cases until the illegal reaches a threshold of state felony convictions. About 10 years ago that threshold was 3 state felony convictions before the Federal courts would take the case. That's strict.
Nothing will work until the freebies are taken away from Americans who won't work, the illegals who won't work and the anchor baby program is dismantled.
The libertarian in me would love to have open borders. Sadly we don't live in a libertarian world were that would work. We live in a welfare country - granted it's not a full blown socialist country but that's not for lack of trying. If we want to have the rule of law we need to not just selectively enforce laws. Get rid of a lot of them yes, selectively enforce - no.
We have legal methods of immigration. If those are too strict then we need to fix that. Ignoring the problem, or worse, encouraging it, is a disaster.
Since we're not going to fix the welfare problem in my lifetime, we need to fix the immigration problem. That does not mean stopping it - although I think until we get our own act together, that might be a viable approach. It means ending all illegal immigration. Then worrying about enhancing legal immigration. We're not short of workers, we're short of market incentives to work. Someday we may, in reality, have a shortage of labor, but we're not there.
WHY!!?? If 50 million illegals came here should they all get a path to citizenship? If 300 million came here should they get a path to citizenship? Why? Do we have a shortage of uneducated people whose hobby seems to be having babies and living on welfare? Do we even need any legal immigrants? We are one of the biggest nations in terms of population and we are failing our own citizens so why have any immigration? I say we place a moratorium on ALL immigration and put forth a massive effort to identify and deport everyone here illegally. Then after we have deported all the illegals put the question of legal immigration to a popular vote. Let both sides debate it and let the voters decide it.