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Thursday, June 13. 2013When It Comes to Working, 74 is the New 65I have written about the history of the concept of retirement several times, over the years. Basically, I tend to believe that retirement is a bad idea for body and soul. My house painter is 74, and he claims work keeps him young and permits him to take better trips than he could otherwise afford. Do farmers retire? The post is from Mead. Trackbacks
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Depends on the work. Some kinds of work will wear out the body by age 50. Cement work, for example, it tough. Other work requires the strength, eyes, and endurance that older people no longer have. So while I agree that continuing work has many benefits besides income, not all work is suited to older people.
Yea. I'm a retired air transport pilot. Pacemaker, deaf, fixed-focus eyes (cataract repair), and other ailments. Would you fly with me? I wouldn't even fly with myself.
Capt'n Bill,
Recognize Ur moniker from your complimentary comment on Doc's post on AF447 a while back. Would you fly with me? I wouldn't even fly with myself Would consider being your "eyes 'n ears" but lets negotiate..! lol. You must have MANY educational stories I would love to hear. Spent 29+ yrs as an ATClr but...have 5.5 hrs in my Student Pilot Log Book. Bill Oglis (my Instructor) tol' me, during my 1st hr of instruction: "Garry, there's one concept you HAVE to grasp! If you want to go up...pull back a little...IF you want to go down...PULL ALL THE WAY BACK !!!! " Would this qualify me to be your "Co-pilot"...or anybody's? Respectfully submitted, TC Do farmers retire?
My grandfather died at age 67 while bringing in the harvest. My grandmother's second husband farmed a section until he was in his 80s. My grandfather was a farmer, and he never really retired, he just did a little less on the farm [he had a son farming with him] every year until he died. At age 89.
OTOH, I have a very good neighbor who was a dry-waller, and he says no way could he have worked past 55 when he retired. His knees and legs wouldn't have stood it. My knees and legs are probably worse than his, but I began teaching college at age 45 and I expect to continue until at least age 70 [I'm 66 now] given decent continuing health and that I feel I'm still effective. [My particular specialty is at a premium, is expected to continue to be so for at least the next decade, and replacing me would be very difficult.] Lecturing and grading isn't hard physical labor, for sure. I like what I do and other than the usual old age pain, my health is excellent. Why not continue to work? As shown above and by my neighbor, it all depends on many more things than health and age. My paternal grandmother was a farmer well into her seventies, retirement would have been a vague construct to her. She had to end it in her eighties though, could no longer pick up the plow. Doubt she called it retirement.
Curiosity piqued, Jorg. Any chance you could reveal that unique specialty of yours. And yes, I have no plans to not work. I call seventy a cut-off, but in my profession knowledge is still knowledge, no matter its aging. My grandfather was a farmer (in a British colony) and he died at 55 (stroke, no medical care worth a damn in the colonies, an athlete, qualified for the Olympics, lifelong tennis player, rode all over his estates on his horse, hunter, explorer). My other grandfather taught at Harvard and was a museum director, historian, author,and also died of a stroke, but after a fat and comfortable existence with many friends, died at the age of 70, working until a day before his fatal attack. Never stopped writing ,studying, working.
The women lasted longer: both grandmothers til mid 90s. Probably because they never worked full time and didn't have to deal with vicious office politics or (in farmer grandfather's case, rioting workers advancing on the estate with torches and angry threats periodically). Also probably because they had no heart or blood vessel problems ,ate their veggies, had many friends, constantly did good deeds, surrounded themselves by young people and loved children, had no use for old people, were politically liberal, were constantly learning new things, and changing their opinions. Both grandmothers were influenced a great deal by us grandchildren (several of us lived with them for prolonged periods of time) and they said we kept them young. Both grandmothers had never really had full time jobs, but they always worked part time volunteer jobs. One had trained as a concert pianist and worked in WWII as a driver for the Polish Govt in Exile, another was a historian and author and extremely active in charitable activities. Both grandmothers had extremely good health until about 90. As for parents? Mother a housewife, became paraplegic as a result of a fall at 60, obviously couldn't work. Father had to retire from the worldwide company he had founded after a couple of years of her injury to be her full time caregiver. He had to learn how to be a full time homemaker, cook, nurse, etc. after a 40 year marriage in which she had done everything to run the household. So he never retired, he just changed roles, quite devotedly and in fact became a spectacular cook tho never a good housekeeper. We kids were very sad that our parents never got to retire as they went straight from my father working 16 hour days for the family with them only having occasional vacations together, to my mother being crippled and constant dreary nursing being their existence. They both died relatively young (70 and 73) after being pretty much tethered at home. They were happy so long as they were together but we felt that my dad had worked SO hard all his life that it would have been nice if he had had at least a few years to relax and pursue more of his hobbies and travel even more with her (he had always travelled for his work). As far as retirement in general goes, it matters more to working class and lower middle class people. Most people in this country have horrible jobs, not fulfilling professions as partners in law firms or physicians. A lot of the people I work with are laborers who develop crippling injuries or office workers who get carpal tunnel or sedentary people who develop other health problems that more or less make them too sick to work by 65. A psychoanalyst can go gently senile and be thought wise and calm at 80 as he nods off in his wing chair. But a tree climber will die at 50 if his shoulder seizes up at the wrong moment. It's very easy to carp at people for wanting to retire if one has an interesting career oneself. But many people have either had to settle for whatever work they could get, or had to abandon youthful dreams and ambitions to pursue work that will enable them to support a family. Sometimes work that the individual absolutely detests, that literally shortens their lifespan (read some of the studies on pink collar stress, for example). For their health's sake, then, many people retire as soon as they possibly can. For example, people who work in closed buildings (where the windows won't' open to the outside air) for more than a few years will likely end up with chronic respiratory conditions eventually. At my former employer's, a Catholic agency in a sealed building, virtually all the nuns over a certain age living there had unnaturally high rates of respiratory illness, that killed many of them too young. Fortunately they moved (tho not for that reason). But certainly some work environments are physically unhealthy, and many FAR worse than an indoor office environment which just has mold, dust, formaldehyde, etc. People in coal mines, factories, and the like end up retiring early because of lung damage. The other piece of all this is simply this (just to play devil's advocate): if you love your spouse and the rest of your family, why on earth would you continue to go to work all day, every day when you could be taking your loved one around the world or at least helping them look after the house or going and visiting your grandchildren? The people I know who keep endlessly working are usually avoiding being at home.... It's good to have somewhere to go each day for a few hours, so as to have interesting things to tell one's spouse over dinner, but realistically, most of us are really not going to be worth our pay once we're over a certain age. The young have it WAY over us on most counts. They are quicker, calculate faster, are more cheerful, idealistic, more creative, less devious, less cynical, and not as doom ridden as the old. I feel strongly that it is selfish for old people who can afford to retire to hold on to their jobs like Komodo Dragons when there are young people with families to support in need of work. I don't think retirement should be mandatory, because some old people really do need the money. But I do think anyone working after 70 should ask themself if they are taking bread out of the mouth of a recent college graduate. And if it is ethical to do so, just so that the 70 year old can feel fulfilled and stimulated when the 22 year old needs to eat and pay off student loans and be able to marry and start a family. It's good to have somewhere to go each day for a few hours, so as to have interesting things to tell one's spouse over dinner, but realistically, most of us are really not going to be worth our pay once we're over a certain age. The young have it WAY over us on most counts. They are quicker, calculate faster, are more cheerful, idealistic, more creative, less devious, less cynical, and not as doom ridden as the old.
My motto, "Old age and Treachery will beat Youth and Skill every time". They are also NOT quicker, they are slackers. Calculate faster? Not if I pull the batteries out of their tablet (piss on it, hammer the goddam thing). Then we'll have a speed trial on yellow pads and #2 pencils. Cheerful? They are whiners. Idealistic? State indoctrinated drones. As for the rest of it; they have out-of-wedlock children (a phrase they have never heard) that they expect the state to support, $200K in student loans for a degree in Diversity training? Chain them to a slave coffle, call it graduate work. Yeah, I was forcibly retired at 60 when my job got shipped to India. Lost my wife six months later and now I regret the 80-90 hours weeks and weekends I spend working to provide for her. I have enough money to start my own business, but the prospect of having to hire those useless pieces of ..... No, I have enough money to do what I want, while taking care of another, older generation of my family. Piss on the young. John, every male in my family has had your experience Imy dad at 45 when he was in surgery for a brain tumor because they didn't want him seeing clients with a shaved head. He was fortunate that his crazy scheme of a business took off after that) --I'm NOT talking about the revoltingly disloyal way corporations treat middle aged people who have put in years of service. I;m reacting to the phenomenon I see all around me (it may be unique to my area?) of prosperous old people holding on to their jobs ferociously when young and middle aged people are unemployed, of people double dipping (retiring from one profession with a pension then getting another job). I don't romanticize the young (I have em), but they don't ALL have degrees in diversity and it is a tragic waste when bright, hard-working kids can't even get a job of ANY kind out of college. How are they going to have sense knocked into them except in the workplace? I learned more in my first two jobs than in all of school....
Granted it would be nice to present every kid in America with a job along with their diploma, and granted again some kids graduating with (what used to be) hard-won dergrees in tough subjects like the law can't find work. [Doubt very many engineering or science students have that problem]
But you seem to think that "jobs" are a zero-sum game, to give a job to that new worker, another existing worker must retire from the game. I don't think that's true but let's assume that it is and ask why? I mentioned that after getting cut loose I could have started my own business and I could have (a small business), I had the capital, and I had the knowledge in more than one area. Even had experience, from donating free photography to the local Senior Centers and shooting the weddings of a couple of kids that couldn't afford a Pro. Though small, it's likely that I would have needed to hire one or two people. But I live in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, in the age of Obama and for family reasons need to stay here. I've seen friends try to start something in this state and I've seen them get bled dry. And on the Federal level it just as bad if not worse. We fund entire agencies (EPA and today it seems, DOJ) that seem to have no other purpose then to destroy business or, at least, make it too expensive to operate. Law after law comes out of Washington, DC adding levels of complexity and cutting profits. Not one law comes out of that town that helps people trying to run a business. Tort reform would be easy and is long overdue, even large and established companies operate in fear of one insane judgement and award that could bankrupt them. If jobs has become a zero-sum game it isn't the older workers holding onto their jobs that's the reason. John,
Piss on the young I'm feeling sad for you. You didn't mention it but I'm assuming you have no children. TC I might retire to a farm. I know I won't be sitting at desk in a drab building looking at a computer screen until I'm 70.
Well, to be fair, if you don't own and control the business, you'd best be prepared to be "retired" in your 50s. Odds are, it will be a RAW deal, Retired Against Will. But then you won't really be retired as you'll be off looking for some new job at reduced circumstances.
So, now, that RAW threat will extend through one's 60s. Because what we are talking about with 74 as the new 65 is HAVING to continue to work to make your daily nut. Because, you can retire from a job at 65 but there is not requirement that one veg out in front of the TV. A retiree can either keep busy doing personal projects or they can find the external stimulus by doing something different for pay. But they don't have to do it to make the rent. Should the rest of society be picking up that tab for you to retire? Probably the pay off on the SS scam will move up to 74 or so. This will be a problem for those who didn't save or had misfortune, e.g., accident, illness, Obama, befall their savings. But one should plan to retire as early as possible by organizing a modest life, savings, controlling business ownership (if possible) and then start cutting back on the "working for the man" to having a variety work done in your own time. Do farmers retire? Well I did, and around here the the villages are full of retired farmers. They don't have retired farmer branded on their foreheads so you don't know, unless you are part of that community. You just notice the ones that don't stop.
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