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Monday, September 2. 2013
Reposted. Highly entertaining. This via a Reason post about Justin Bieber:
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Talking with police is friendly thing to do but (methinks, what title of this ought be) Never Ask Police for Legal Advice!
The police are not your friend and they are unpersuaded by your friendly nature. Be polite but be private in your thoughts and actions.
Badges may not be on yall's Christmas list, JKB but ...duck and run...feathers....in fact, some are me friends and the rest are deserving of respect and friendly chatter and backup in time of need, even yankee cops.
Reality is reality. Tell a federal agent it going to be a nice day but then it rains, you are at risk of being charged with lying to a federal officer. Not likely but should you really be in jeopardy for friendly banter?
One must be on guard when dealing with law enforcement unless you have the position or power to ensure they must go the extra distance to prove accusations. That doesn't mean being belligerent or unfriendly. It doesn't mean leaving the hired help in jeopardy when they are in extremis since ultimately the duty to keep the peace falls to the People. But the world is, one must be aware of the legal risk when involved with the police.
Yall's reality is yourn.
However, meself likes it when it rains and the world is really nice on such days.
Yall's tenderness concerning the badges is shared and appreciate the caution.
Notwithstanding, as much as me like and respect the badges allows me a greater comfort range than yall but me don't take their legal advice or public defender's.
The street is not the place to plead the Fifth unless yall are an island.
As citizens, we have an interest in the police doing their job efficiently and thoroughly. We WANT them to succeed in capturing criminals - that's why we tax ourselves to support them.
Admonitions to never talk to the police is convincingly in one's self-interest but can run counter to the public interest since you may be able to communicate some fact that would help in capture of the real criminal.
When everyone clams up for self-protection from the police, their leads and information sources dry up.
This lack of trust between the police power and the citizenry erodes public peace and order.
The solution would be not to make everything a crime or offenses so numerous and complicated no one can be certain they aren't going to be charged.
But the reality is, you have to be aware of when their eyes turn to you, not as a witness but as someone of interest. And even as a witness, follow Joe Friday's advice, "Just the facts"
My take on the lecture and on private conversations with a public defender friend, is don't EVER tell them anything beyond drivers license, registration, proof of insurance and other documents.
Even then, you're not required to produce ID unless you're driving or suspected of a specific crime.
Somebody tell me if I'm wrong.
Why is he wrong, Leag? Or were you just giving him a friendly affirmation? (As in, "You can call me stupid, but..." "You're stupid.")
Easy, Whitehall's cited source is public defender.
PD's are no better source than cops.
Nevertheless, police authority may ask for id and failure to respond appropriately is obstructing.
Badge asking violates no right.
Actually, it depends on the state you are in and the situation. Some require ID, others just that you identify yourself. Generally, with cause, they can detain a person until the identity is verified. After you get to court, your lawyer can argue the officer didn't have sufficient probable cause. You may or may not be obstructing but as they say, you might beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.
It is generally you should show id when asked but you do have to identify yourself. Of course, if your identity is incriminating, but then you'll need more sophisticated tactics if that's the case.
Yall are correct the baliwicks vary on this issue.
So, JKB is wrong in some baliwicks by ordinance and/or statute by your surmise.
Logically, he is wrong despite, his public offenders opinion to contrary.
In a nutshell, yall's desire to act the tuff with police authority suggests yall need to get a talking points card from the ACLU.
Corection: Whitehall is wrong but JKB it amuses me that yall challenge when in fact yall agree.
Presenting ID when requested seems innocent enough until you try saying the request with a German accent:
"Your papers, bitte."
One reason I ask was an incident I had a couple of years ago. I was walking down Haight Street in San Francisco and was getting chatted up by a hippie type - he wanted to sell me some second-hand medical marijuana. As we turned the corner onto Ashbury, he asked me "You're not a cop are you?"
Of course, that was right in front of two cops sitting having coffee at a sidewalk cafe. Being competent cops, they follows us and asked for an explanation. I offered no details but did provide my drivers license (CDL) when requested.
'Parently yall are slow as other over educated.
Try to pay attention to the context.
Chides directed towards boo may be referenced for informative tutor.
When I sold life insurance I would give my little spiel and then sit and look at them (usually the wife and husband). They couldn't stand the silence and always felt the need to start talking and usually talked themselves into buying (just as often the guy would look at you and sa NO! and then say goodnight thanks for coming by). What you have to watch out for when talking to the police, a salesman, the other side (there is always another side) is the normal human desire to speak and when there is alull in the conversation we can really put our foot in our mouths. For the last 20 years all the family reunions, thanksgivings and Christmas dinners have been so much better since I learned to not take the bait and join in the political arguement. I have found another outlet; Maggie's.
For all his bloviating he didn't address whether Louis Lerner waived her right to the 5th. I think she did.
Used to be that was what a "beat cop" would be about - being friendly, gathering information, processing events, knowing who might and might not know something if anything happened......damn shame that in our "new" society, cops are seen as the enemy rather than our friends and neighbors.
...damn shame that in our "new" society, many cops view all non-cops as the enemy rather than their friends and neighbors.
As a former cop, take Miranda to heart - Anything you say can\will be used against you, and be mindful of your rights - the other side is, and knows all the tricks to get what they need...
The only friend you have is the Parrish confessional for confidentiality - everybody else has an angle, and should be viewed with suspicion...
It's a slippery slope, but sometimes it may help to provide some information to the police. It may be helpful to tell the cops that you are the victim, and that you want to press charges. It may be helpful to identify any witnesses (before they leave the area), as well as any physical evidence the perps may have discarded or dropped, like shell casings, weapons, etc. It may help if you are the one that calls 911 first. Doing things like this may help establish the narrative for the incident. In other words, the perp may try to pin everything on you, and he gets a head start if his is the only story out there.
Of course, if YOU are the perp, best keep your mouth shut.
I've seen that video, and it's hard argue against it. A lot of people who end up in jail do so due to self-incrimination, or by inadvertently making their situation worse with ill-chosen words.
BTW, as the video discusses, it is LEGAL for the cops to lie to you. It's a mistake to think they are on your side.
I enjoyed the series The Closer on some streaming network. Again and again and again the show reinforced for me the notion of never talking to the police without full immunity. The wonderful characters would lie to and mislead those they were questioning at every opportunity.
And I am fairly sure that the right to remain silent is separate from the right to an attorney. You just have to keep repeating it until it sinks in. You may even void your 5th Amendment protection once you start talking.
He can't be much of a law professor if he thinks that the privilege against self-incrimination and the right against compulsory self-witness emanate from the same place.
Privileges can be denied. Rights cannot.