We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.
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Thursday, November 8. 2007
Did I ever want to acquire the Sixties? No. But if I own the Sixties, I'll give 'em to you if you want 'em. You can have 'em.
Bob Dylan (h/t, K)
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What Bob Dylan wanted I have no idea. What he got was the imprimatur of the anti war left as one of their icons. One he never repudiated at the time appearing most often with others whose anti-war positions were well known.
Since their seemed to be a good deal of denial and obfuscation of this in the previous posting, perhaps giving some deeper thought to what the enemy thought of his "service" to his country and a deeper reflection on the greater loss of life he is partially responsible for.
One of the many anti -war, the USA is bad and evil ...initiating the meme we live with today as Dylan and Joan Baez, in the vanguard of that movement used song and the callow minds of a generation to give aid and comfort to our enemy.
On the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, General Vo Nguyen Giap, the legendary commander-in-chief of North Vietnam’s military, praised America’s Vietnam anti-war protesters for their contribution to the communist victory, I would like to thank them ,” the general told Reuters. Former North Vietnamese Colonel Bui Tin explained, Through dissent and protest [America] lost the ability to mobilize a will to win
According to [General] Giap, they were inspirational to the NVA. They changed their plans from a negotiated surrender and decided instead, they only needed to persevere for one more hour, day, week, month, eventually the protesters in America would help them to achieve a victory they knew they could not win on the battlefield... Today, there are 58,000 names on the Vietnam Wall Memorial ...when Bob and Joan started singing and protesting there were less than 7,000 dead.
I will spit on your grave when you pass. You are scum.
I'm as disgusted with the antiwar idiots as you are, Habu, I support the U.S. military as strongly as you do, but I don't agree with taking someone's enemies' characterization of a man as the measure of the man.
The antiwar crowd would have dearly loved to have had Dylan on their side and tried to draft him, but once they realized he was just using them to gain exposure they rejected him and made up this fantasy that he had really been one of them and had apostasized.
This can be easily proved by the fact that Dylan, who was writing so many songs at this time that he would show up at the studio with a song he'd written in the car on the way over, never once wrote an anti-Vietnam war song. Never. Once. Rather odd for someone at the "vanguard" of the antiwar movement?
Dylanologist and author Marc Catone writes:
"Mr. Rose once read a statement saying that I was disappointed that Dylan didn't write a protest song specfically about Vietnam, and that I thought a lot of people in the antiwar movement felt left-down. It's true...I said it, and have no regrets because both statements are true…"
"Unfortunately, for him, as well as the public, he never wrote an antiwar protest song when it was needed most, during the late 1960s. Although, I have no way to gauge this in any way, I'm sure there are many people who would have loved a direct anti-Vietnam war song from Bob. It's like he set them up with his earlier work...conditioning them, so to speak,...and when he would have been appreciated the most... he wasn't there... a glaring omission…"
"… what I will never understand is how someone who was obviously quite pained by world affairs consisting of violence and war, and nuclear annihilation (and wrote about those feelings), never wrote a song about the Vietnam war, or the antiwar movement against it, during that era…"
"I guess I must have forgotten about all the anti-Vietnam War actions that Bob participated in and all the anti-Vietnam songs that Dylan wrote, and all the antiwar speeches he made... wait a minute... there weren't any."
"Dylan was never political, but people believed he was this new prophet, and hung on his every word. Meanwhile Dylan got off on berating the people who followed him…"
Hope that clears up the confusion. Sometimes chaotic eras and events are best looked at in retrospect, once all the dust has settled.
To those posters who are younger than fifty-five you have no concept of Vietnam except what you have been told or read about, especially in the period after Tet.
You have no conception of how divided this country became, with the war protesters in a minority but vocal and with the media behind them.
It's the difference between watching an Imax movie production of scaling of Mt. Everest and actually doing it. So when "you don't see something" or understand what the big deal is all about, I understand.
But I was there, I saw the effects of Baez and Dylan and CSN&Y and the balladeers encouraging the enemy to fight on against America. I leaves one with less than warm feelings for those who did it and those who supported it, and those a generation later who are willing to give them a free pass, purchased with the lives of 40,000+ more dead.
That is why I asked for the ages and service experience of the staff, which apparently is not going to be provided. It's easy to forgive something you had no experience with.
"It's the difference between watching an Imax movie production of scaling of Mt. Everest and actually doing it."
It could be applied to any writer of history who can set up any historical framework he wants but will always end up with glorious past inventions, confusions between myth and history, story and reality. It all leads to a cost of the ability to think critically.
History has always embodied the hopes and fears of those who write it. Its future character depends on what those hopes and fears will prove to be. Based on evidence and empirical inquiry, it loses some of the writer's interpretive narrative and comes close to the truth.
That might well hold true except for the fact that first source knowledge is always deemed to be the most accurate and therfore deserving of greater weight than others.
The exception of course would be something on the order of what we will eventually see from the Clinton's. Bill's somniferous tome told us nothing, but the archival material should be more illiuminating.
"...first source knowledge..."
Based on evidence and empirical inquiry, it loses some of the writer's interpretive narrative and comes close to the truth.
As one who mourns the men behind the names on 'the wall' at least as deeply as you do, let me say this.
I understand that you do not want this country to ever again experience what happened in Vietnam. You have illustrated, intelligently and with skill and wit, how the schisms that existed then are perhaps even more pervasive today. And that we must not only protect what we have, but must go on the offensive to take back the rightful glories that belong to this great country.
But your task is frustrating as well as somewhat Sisyphean. The clarity of truth and history falls to the few who understand its context for the present. Unfortunately, it is usually the few who have, as you say, shouldered a weapon or devoted their life to serving this country. Not everyone is suited to man the rampart's.
You fight the good fight and I admire you for it. But, as the saying goes... you can catch more bees with honey... just my 2 cents.
I agree with Luther, Habu. Make the point that the useful idiots of the 60s did a whole lot of damage and will forever carry that mark, and extend the point by saying that having been in the shit you don't believe that someone who wasn't may be unable to fully apprehend that damage, and then, leave it there, because the firing up the Star Chamber only shifts the spotlight and places it on the prosecutor.
just my 2 centavos.
''you don't believe'' should read ''you do believe''. --got lost in the verb declensions.
Thoughtful and appreciated words Luther. And the bees and honey thing, well it's as true today as it was when first uttered by whoever had an utter.
Fortunately/unfortunately I am hardwired via my gene pool to be bull doggish on certain things. I am many times fully prepared to have my liver pecked out.
I'm not sure why the staff is veiling some information of little use but of some curiosity. So far the explanation of "we don't give out personal info" is risible, if not down right pathetic. But they must have their reasons and will be as:
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Bob Dylan's day.
From the famous Saint Dylan's Day speech on Maggies Farm
(profound apologies to Wm. Shakespeare)
An early ooh-rah and Semper Fidelis as we approach 232 years of the Corps.
"In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve"
Yes Habu, and Semper Fidelis to you. It is to my chagrin that I was never able to visit ol' Tuns Tavern. Or, at the least, its location, I can't remember if it is still there or not.
Just between you and I Habu. I was offered a field commission on the last night of my second tour in SVN. The previous three days had been hell and I had used up a lot of luck during the previous year. I thought three tours would be pushing it. So I turned it down. You don't know how much I have regretted that decision over the years. Not that I didn't have my bad moments with the green apple... but it was family... and brotherhood. It took a little more maturity before I realized how important that is.
Do you remember in the TV series "Band of Brothers"?
There was a scene in that series where Major Dick Winters is volunteering to go to the Pacific theater ASAP. The reviewing general goes over his record, his aspirations and expectations and says something on the order of " Son you've done more than your share and I think I'll just keep you here"
Luther you did more than your share and your move was right. You and I both know that in combat luck plays a role. There's no reason why the guy next to you gets vaporized with a mortar round and you're left untouched..it just happens...but you can't keep going back and back and back ...sometime there just might not be any more luck left to go around...
You stay proud and toast one for the Corps in two days.
Gentlemen...thank you. One day a year is not enough to say it all. Without you and others like you... there are no words.
thank you for your service. glad you came back...many of my friends/classmates did not.
Mila, thank you.
So many of each generation it seems have given their last full measure of devotion so we can be free. I never saw any other way but to do what duty this country deemed necessary and I was lucky.
Ditto on Mila's words of gratitude. Thanks to you and yours and those who came before you, we are all (to paraphrase Mr. Dylan himself) allowed to be free. May you stay forever lucky.