Maggie's Farm

We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.

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Friday, November 9. 2007

QQQ

I am a democrat [believer in democracy] because I believe in the Fall of Man. I think most people are democrats for the opposite reason. A great deal of democratic enthusiasm descends from the ideas of people like Rousseau, who believed in democracy because they thought mankind so wise and good that every one deserved a share in the government. The danger of defending democracy on those grounds is that they’re not true. . . . I find that they’re not true without looking further than myself. I don’t deserve a share in governing a hen-roost. Much less a nation. . . . The real reason for democracy is just the reverse. Mankind is so fallen that no man can be trusted with unchecked power over his fellows. Aristotle said that some people were only fit to be slaves. I do not contradict him. But I reject slavery because I see no men fit to be masters.

CS Lewis, 1943 (h/t, Dr. Bob)

Posted by Bird Dog in Politics, Quotidian Quotable Quote (QQQ) at 08:18 | Comments (23) | Trackbacks (0)

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I do not contradict him. But.. is oxymoronic.

Mr Lewis may not find himself worthy of self government, but thank God enough USA citizens have for several hundred years.

Democrats may take the back seat till they can get their sins forgiven. That will work just fine for the rest of US citizens.
#1 Leag on 2007-11-09 10:04 (Reply)
His language is poor for what he's expressing: the absolute power he bespeaks should be denoted by the word "rulership" instead of government; then, he makes great sense.

His fiction sucks, but I've yet to read any of his essays that I didn't think was spot on (even though I'm not religious).
#1.1 JimDesu on 2007-11-09 12:00 (Reply)
Jack will have to be taken at his own sophmorisms.

Me thinks, if I corrected all his mistaken assertions he might be palletable. But then that would no longer be Jack.

As a little girl, my daughter used to consume his fantasies but I was always surprised because I never really took to his religious philosphy.
#1.1.1 Leag on 2007-11-09 15:50 (Reply)
Nor I (not religious), but there're enough things that he's written that remain apt regardless of the religious focus.

You may guess that I'm a fan of his (obviously): he's the only moralist I ever found palatable, if not downright entertaining.
#1.1.1.1 JimDesu on 2007-11-09 15:55 (Reply)
I don't know, I can't see where correcting mistakes in his work would make it easier to stack him.
#1.1.1.2 Clubbeaux on 2007-11-10 03:01 (Reply)
When was CS born? Did he serve in Vietnam? Was he against the war or did any well known anti-war activist ever quote him? If so, why should I listen to any thing he has to say?
#2 sean on 2007-11-09 10:04 (Reply)
CS Lewis died before Vietnam: he fought in the Battle of the Somme, however, which gives him plenty of cred in my book.

But more to the point: why should his potential peace-nik status be required to justify his speach? Or was that humor?
#2.1 JimDesu on 2007-11-09 12:07 (Reply)
It was left-over sarcasm from yesterday. But a good response from you.
#2.1.1 BD on 2007-11-09 14:29 (Reply)
CS Lewis sure had the left figured out, didn't he--the ref to Rousseau, whose 'noble savage' was invoked by the first modern leftist, Robespierre, who so loved the common man that he cut off 30,000 heads in his name --while replacing the old top-down system with another one, which had all the old defects plus another, huge and corrupt one--the Big Lie that the new system was "the people's".
#3 buddy larsen on 2007-11-09 12:34 (Reply)
He had the relationship between universal suffrage and democracy figured out as well. He knew the destination of that particular road. The "I see no men fit to be masters" is a rather unsubtle (for him) dig - he generally used venom much more sparingly.
#3.1 Rick Ballard (Link) on 2007-11-09 16:05 (Reply)
Maybe I should forward this to my Congress(womyn) who is anxiously awaiting the total and absolute takeover by the Democratic Socialist Party (aka Democratic Party) so that she can get first crack at heading up the secret police and send us politically incorrect men and women to the gulags in upper North Dakota.

Jan, if you're reading this, you know where to find me. But it won't be easy as I buried the Ring in a place that neither you nor HRC nor the orcs will ever find it.
#4 John Hetman on 2007-11-09 14:47 (Reply)
I think his comment is misunderstood unless taken in the context of his Christian belief. I think the quote is a theological view, only secondarily an opinion about democracy.

I agree with him. Had he authored Animal House, he would have said that all animals are equally bad, and no animal is better than another. We all depend on God's grace.
#5 CT on 2007-11-09 15:29 (Reply)
Actually, he was worried about democracy too. He was pretty much worried about everything in the "human condition" and how we conduct ourselves. I'm not sure for him that these things are truly separate categories. Honestly, though, just flipping through the nightly news is enough, sans religion, to assure one that if we aren't fallen, at least that it's premature to declare ourselves elevated.

You might enjoy the codicil found in the later printings of The Screwtape Letters, in which he discusses a recognizably left-wing threat to democracy.
#5.1 JimDesu on 2007-11-09 15:52 (Reply)
You're right. I was thinking more about this topic, and I recalled some fairly negative comments he made about democracy in his books. Yet I can't see where he in any fashion advocated socialism or communism, both avant-garde beliefs among his peers at the time. And as you point out, he disliked left-wing thinking then as much as we dislike it now.

I suspect he was merely critiquing the flaws in our system and trying to retain perspective on man's true nature. For Mr. Lewis the physical was always involved with the spiritual, and I don't disagree.

BTW, for those with interest, Amazon has various hard cover collected works of Lewis at a very reasonable price. I believe in the low $30 range.
#5.1.1 CT on 2007-11-09 16:44 (Reply)
JimDesu,
You say his fiction sucks, but your a fan of his ( obviously ). Do you really think the Chronicals of Narnia, Screwtape Letters, Til We Have Faces, and the Space Trilogy suck. We definitely have differing tastes.
Mere Christianity was, for me, a life changing book. I bought it in bulk and gave them out to many people expecting them to be affected as I was, but few came back a new person for reading it. The only book of his that I did not enjoy was Miracles. I think it was above my head. Sort of like Gagdad Bob at One Cosmos. I enjoy reading him, especiially when he's ranking on the left, but half the time I have no idea what he's talking about.
BD. I think Lewis dated a babe with a flag painted on her torso.
#6 sean on 2007-11-09 16:37 (Reply)
I'm not a fan of the others you mention, but actually, I don't regard The Screwtape Letters as fiction. I regard it as a set of essays using a fictitious point of view. But everything he says in Screwtape (I have a signed 1st), viewed through the lens of his Christian perspective, is pretty much the complete truth. Even if you're nonreligious as I am, even the bits that convert to metaphor are still absolutely spot on. Perhaps the others don't exactly suck (disclaimer: I have neither read nor heard of Til We Have Faces), but they're not at all to my taste.

Mere Christianity is outstanding, as is The Problem of Pain and Surprised by Joy.
#6.1 JimDesu on 2007-11-09 16:49 (Reply)
I'm a great fan of St. Clive's essays, and The Screwtape Letters has informed my Christian world view more than any book since The Bible, but I think his fiction outside of The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe is mostly disposable.

Granted that Narnia's meant for kids, even when I read it as a kid I didn't care for most of it. I tried three times to get through the Space Trilogy and was bored stiff each time. And my English professor at Wheaton, Dr. Martindale, who has since edited a collection of Lewis, summed up Till We Have Faces perfectly: "I have no idea what he's talking about."

Lewis' comments must be understood in the context of his belief in Original Sin, that of man being inherently fallen. A good rule of thumb is that a socialist communist is one who thinks people are basically good, a democratic capitalist is one who recognizes the truth -- we are basically sinful.
#6.2 Clubbeaux on 2007-11-10 02:59 (Reply)
"Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains. One man thinks himself the master of others, but remains more of a slave than they." Rousseau

Did Rosseau anticipate his critic?

As WWII began, Jack's take was that military service is like slavery, toil under arbitrary masters and preferred death.

My memories of the last war haunted my dreams for years. Military service, to be plain, includes the threat of every temporal evil; pain and death, which is what we fear from sickness; isolation from those we love, which is what we fear from exile; toil under arbitrary masters … which is what we fear from slavery: hunger, thirst, and exposure which is what we fear from poverty. I'm not a pacifist. If it's got to be it's got to be. But the flesh is weak and selfish, and I think death would be much better than to live through another war (Letters 320).
#7 Leag on 2007-11-09 16:47 (Reply)
Thucydides, “the strong do what they will and the weak endure what they must.
#7.1 Anonymous on 2007-11-09 19:40 (Reply)
President Jefferson Davis:

“I worked night and day for twelve years to prevent the war, but I could not. The North was mad and blind, would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came.”
#7.1.1 Leag on 2007-11-09 21:43 (Reply)
Till We Have Faces is the retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche written originally by second century Roman author Apuleius. Lewis was said to have thought it was his best work. I think it was good, but by far not his best. Worth a read though.
The Four Loves is a good study of the four words translated love in the NT-storge (affection), phila (friendship), eros ( sex), and agape (selfless love). I have this on cassette tape read by Lewis. This is, as far as I know, the only recording of Lewis's voice. He sounds a little like my namesake Sean Connery.
I also left out The Great Divorce. Great short novel about the dead driven by bus to a purgatorial landscape where they have to choose their eternal fate. Its his tribute to one of his favorite authors,George MacDonald.
My favorite biography of Lewis is Jack by George Sayer. He was also a member of the Inklings. Lewis's autobiography Surprised By Joy is a classic.
A good book for insight into the character of Lewis is Letters to Children. Its a record of his correspondence with children mostly about the Narnia stories, but also about creativity and faith and Christianity etc.
I have wonderful recordings of John Cleese reading the Screwtape Letters and of actor Michael York reading Mere Christianity. I guess it becomes obvious that CS Lewis is my favorite author.
#8 sean on 2007-11-09 17:46 (Reply)
He's one of my favorite authors as well, I have read and re-read much of his work. I found Miracles required some real study.

Were I an English teacher, I would require he be read in my class. Also, the man is a top-class logician, and should be studied by any would-be philosophers. Interestingly, my daughter's logic professor, whom she was close to, found Lewis too difficult to read. He was struggling with Christianity on a personal level, and it was just too close to home.
#8.1 CT on 2007-11-09 18:27 (Reply)
''He was struggling with Christianity on a personal level, and it was just too close to home''

with Lewis, that happens a lot, i suspect.
#8.1.1 buddy larsen on 2007-11-09 18:49 (Reply)

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