Maggie's Farm

Blackwing1: They are so poorly educated . . .

In fact, the majority of scholars and laypersons placed the Nazis on the political right then, and the majority of scholars and laypersons place the Nazis on the political right now. That's because Nazis believed in a strictly hierarchical organization for society, including racial and ethnic hierarchies, and saw conflict between races and ethnostates as the inevitable and desired condition of humankind.

James4HJ: fascists were widely understood to be on the political left.

Benito Mussolini: "Granted that the 19th century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the 20th century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the “right,” a Fascist century."

• Nazism and the Radical Right in Austria 1918-1934, Lauridsen.
• The Routledge companion to fascism and the far right, Paul Davies.
• The Culture of Fascism: Visions of the Far Right in Britain, edited by Gottlieb & Linehan.
• Fascism Past and Present, West and East: An International Debate on Concepts and Cases in the Comparative Study of the Extreme Right, Griffin et al.
• France in The Era of Fascism: Essays on the French Authoritarian Right, edited by Jenkins.
• Fascism and Neofascism: Critical Writings on the Radical Right in Europe (Studies in European Culture and History), edited by Weitz & Fenner.

And the term "Right" is still applied to neofascists, neo-Nazis, and white supremacist groups. That's because they advocate for a hierarchical society (often with an all-powerful leader leading conflict against inferior races, as well as against weak philosophies, such as liberalism, socialism, democracy, often thought to be put forth by Jews or other enemies meant to undermine society).

James4HJ: Other socialists, including communists also had hierarchical vies of human demography, including race.

While racism is endemic to society, communism is ideologically opposed to racism. Communism sees racism as a socially destructive result of class division. Eliminate class division, per communist ideology, and you will eliminate racism, poverty, war, and all the other ills afflicting humankind. Contrariwise, fascism sees division and conflict as giving meaning to life and to the nation, and the conflict against other inferior races as intrinsic to the natural condition of humankind.

James4HJ: Stop question begging.

Quite the opposite. You had claimed that "fascists were widely understood to be on the political left," but provided no evidence. On the other hand, we provided evidence: a direct quote from the founder of fascism, several scholarly citations, current usage with regards to neofascist and white supremacist groups, and explained why scholars and laypersons then and now consider fascism to be a right-wing movement. Also, fascist gathered their primary support from right-wing groups, such as national defense paramilitary organizations and powerful political and economic interests. This is all strong evidence that fascists were not "widely understood" to be on the political left.


James4HJ: In rhetoric, communists in eastern Europe, the USSR, and China would occasionally give lip service to racial equality. In practice, they rarely implemented it and often fomented violence against ethnic and religious minorities.

And communists rarely implemented policies that actually helped workers either. Yet, they believed that by smashing the class system, it would help workers and resolve other social problems such as racism. That's what happens when unattainable utopian goals are combined with extremism (the belief that the ends justify the means).

Your argument, such as it is, relies upon denying that communist movements were fueled by an idealist belief in social equality (just as populist movements were fueled by a rebellion against elitists, even when the movements may have been co-opted by elitists or charlatans).

Trump isn't Hitler. Hitler is Hitler. Even Hitler wasn't Hitler until the voters and the political system granted him power (a third agreeing with his extreme rhetoric, a third claiming it was just hyperbole but he would fix Germany, and a third the powerful right-wing interests who believed they could control him).

Trump has repeatedly expressed authoritarianism views, and the Supreme Court has essentially outlined how to consolidate power in the executive.

SK: You need new material.

🍪 Heh. Perhaps. However, the point remains: While Trump has expressed authoritarian views, there are many flavors of authoritarianism. Trump is not Hitler. It is appropriate; however, as Mike Godwin of Godwin's Law has made clear, to look at the rise of Hitler to see how authoritarianism can take hold in a society and how it might apply to Trump.