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Tuesday, September 5. 2023

Ukraine

Why does every military expert on Youtube refer to that war as "us" and "we" vs Russia?


They never say "Ukraine." Ukraine is a puppet, getting slaughtered for nothing. I just do not understand. I do not feel like I am at war with anybody.





Posted by Bird Dog in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 15:27 | Comments (16) | Trackbacks (0)

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Fair enough, I hear that argument from a number of people on the right, David Goldman and Tucker Carlson for example.

I'm pretty sure most Ukrainians did not want to be attacked by Russia, and are determined to defend themselves. Ukraine skeptics are usually not familiar with the reasons popular sentiment has become strongly anti-Russian since 2014 in particular, where the conflict was waged for a number of years, and previously pro-Russian Ukrainians were radicalized by the shocking brutality and bloodymindedness of the "Russian separatists" who devastated the region and had no positive effect.

They unleashed ethnic hatreds more common to the Balkans, and ensured stiff resistance by Ukraine. This is a clear case of recognizing that the Russian forces are the bad guys perpetuating an evil injustice. If the Ukrainians choose to fight for their land, it is surely understandable.
#1 Russell on 2023-09-05 16:20 (Reply)
Ukraine has run low on people "choosing to fight" and has been forcibly drafting people for quite some time now. Contrast videos of the bright night life in Kiev with the rows of fresh graves in various villages.

As for every Youtube video promoting the war, that is just the algorithm its job. Some voices may be to big to be cancelled outright, but they still can be shadowbanned.
#1.1 Freddo on 2023-09-05 16:51 (Reply)
"[T]hat is just the algorithm its job."

And you should know since you are very clearly a Kremlin-bot.
#1.1.1 JJM on 2023-09-05 16:57 (Reply)
Ukrainians have always been anti-Russian and why they welcomed the German invasion. As far as the Russian invasion is concerned, it is we who provoked the Russians. After the fall of the wall I hosted two Russian General Officers and even back then they said "Do not expand NATO." Of course we expanded NATO. Bit the Russians could do nothing about it until fairy recently. Ukraine joining NATO was the scratch line that we crossed, ignoring history and geography. Now we're in the thick of it because of our ill-considered strategic thinking. Ukrainians are being slaughtered and we give billions to the Ukrainian oligarchy while homeless American veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq starve and kill themselves.
#1.2 RetiredSOF on 2023-09-05 20:24 (Reply)
Some are hiding the real issue. Others are just trying to relive their Soviet expert years.

Watch Peter Zeihan. He offers the plausible impetus behind the war. First Russia trying to get Ukraine, which is on the way to their real goal which is geographic features that have always been Russia/Soviet goal that are defendable, in contrast to the open plains of Ukraine into Russia proper.

Those geographic boundaries are the Carpathian mts. in Romaia, the Vistuala river, which runs through Warsaw and the Baltic States which is the path in from the Baltic Sea. Those are features they need, and those are features that are in NATO countries.

Once the Ukrainians didn't fold as Biden tried to get them to do in the first days of the war and the Russian army was not as the Russian experts had touted, it was seen that in a few years Russia would try to enter Poland, etc. when that happened, NATO troops, US troops would put the Russians on their heels and that is when Putin goes to the nukes.

Sweden's military has one objective, to keep the Russians at bay. Sweden recently joined NATO. They will not let Russia have military dominance in the Baltic Sea, which means protecting the Baltic States and the eastern half of Poland.

But you could just put it up to not selling out another population like FDR and Churchill did in 1945 to slavery. Russia has taken thousand of Ukrainian children into Russia, killed thousands of Ukrainian people in the territories they've controlled. If Ukraine falls, thousands will be slaughtered. Do you really think you won't have to be witness to that with modern communications?
#2 JKB on 2023-09-05 16:20 (Reply)
Where are the peace talks? Their absence on any agenda (including the UN), and the lack of any advocacy for their advancement, is the indication that this is anything but a one-sided war.
#3 Aggie on 2023-09-05 16:36 (Reply)
I wasn't going to comment because I think the situation is a lot more complicated than most people are willing to admit. I think both sides were doing a lot of killing before the war started, but that Russia did not invade until it was made clear Ukraine was going to become a part of NATO and have nuclear weapons. Also, people forget about the Minsk agreement. My fondest hope is all of the people that want war between these two countries be sent to the front lines with their families.
#4 Robert Moffett (Link) on 2023-09-05 18:12 (Reply)
I'm fairly sure that none of us have the fully-inlformed nuance here, me included. I was in the Czech Republic a little while ago. Up until around 1990, it was behind the Iron Curtain. Our guide (late 60's) made an offhand comment, while taking us through a Nazi SS prison and Jewish concentration camp that had originally been an Austro-Hungarian fort built by the Emperor Josef II. Her mother and father hated the Germans with a passion, having been occupied by the Nazis in the late 30's, with the father shipped off as slave labor in western Germany until he was too sick to work.

She, on the other hand - having lived under post-war communist rule by the Soviets - hated Russians. It was the same thing when I worked in Kazakhstan. They really, really hate Russians.
#4.1 Aggie on 2023-09-05 21:30 (Reply)
We in the US have no concept of conquest, of living under foreign occupation rule, of forced changes to national identity. In Europe it's been one conquest after another over thousands of years, from the Romans forward, with periods of some form of uprising, self-rule and national identity in between. Through it all, in the modern era Europe has been dominated by Germany, France, Italy, and Spain, at one time or another, and the rest of the countries are forced to pretty much bow, grin and bear it.

Now it's a case of a diminishing super-power, the US, trying to leverage its fading influence over the NATO countries - but all of them have different motivations. The way I see it, some of them, like Germany, have seen their economy blown to smithereens by stupid policy mistakes with the US's mischief - blowing up pipelines, for instance - compounding their problems. But still, they align with the US and defer to its foreign policy, gritting their teeth. Others have been content to ride along on NATO's cape, paying the minimum for defense funding while enjoying the leveraged fruits of keeping Mother Russia at bay.
#4.2 Aggie on 2023-09-05 21:34 (Reply)
But I don't think Europe's sublimated self-interests are as far below the surface as they used to be. I don't think it's going to end well. And I certainly don't see this as a conflict that started 1½ years ago - It's been brewing since the early 90s, with bitter memories from even further back. And while I don't think it's the primary agent provocateur , the US has had its 'empire' hand in it, stirring. Just my two cents.
#4.3 Aggie on 2023-09-05 21:44 (Reply)
Ukraine had nuclear weapons after the USSR break up. They screwed up, they trusted the US when they were promised protection if they gave them up. Then the US and NATO did nothing when Putin took Crimea and then the Donbas.

So the lesson for the world is to never trust any security guarantee by the US in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons.
#4.4 JK Brown on 2023-09-06 00:49 (Reply)
JK Brown: Ukraine had nuclear weapons after the USSR break up. They screwed up, they trusted the US when they were promised protection if they gave them up.

The U.S. did not provide a military guarantee. Rather, signatories to the Budapest Memorandum, including Russia, promised to respect Ukraine’s existing borders. Russia broke this promise, a violation of the most fundamental international norm established in the aftermath of conflagrations of the world wars.
#4.4.1 Zachriel on 2023-09-06 22:21 (Reply)
Budapest Memorandum
#4.4.2 Zachriel on 2023-09-06 22:23 (Reply)
"Fuck the EU" Nuland and company are more than willing to fight to the last Ukrainian. All for the glory of neocons and NATO.
#5 indyjonesouthere on 2023-09-05 20:14 (Reply)
There are two very distinct and different issues here and most are conflating them as though it was simply one thing.

Ukraine WAS invaded. You can rant all day long that Ukraine and/or Russian politics is corrupt that changes nothing because Ukraine WAS invaded. AND Ukraine has a perfect right and responsibility to defend it self. Period. End of story.

The U.S. and NATO should not become physically involved in any way. They can negotiate, advise, sell or not sell to either side but not put a single soldier into the fight.

This is a complicated issue between Ukraine and Russia. BUT it is false to claim that Russia is simply trying to save Russian speaking Ukrainians from mal treatment. That is a phony excuse. What Russia wants is the ports on the Black Sea AND the land connecting it to Russia. THAT is the totality of what this war is about. Nothing else. Nothing Ukraine could have done would have stopped Russia. They want those ports and the land bridge to them, period.
#6 OneGuy on 2023-09-06 11:38 (Reply)
One of the more stupid statements you've made. Ukrainians are being slaughtered because Putin decided he would conquer it. Ukraine fought back. The way "conservatives like Carlson blather on about Russia was forced into invading is sickening.
#7 willem on 2023-09-07 07:17 (Reply)

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