Maggie's Farm

Of course, that's not what he said. It has nothing to do with the color of the statue. Nor did he denounce the statue. His thesis concerns the persistence in modern society of treating white people as the standard of beauty and power.

Lizzo - About Damn Time

Oh, I've been so down and under pressure
I'm way too fine to be this stressed, yeah
Oh, I'm not the girl I was or used to be
Uh, bitch, I might be better

Turn up the music, turn down the lights
I got a feelin' I'm gon' be alright

Jerryskids: Funny, I thought it was Dylan Mulvaney who was now the paragon of feminine pulchritude.

She's primarily known as a content creator for her video series, Days of Girlhood, which has garnered over a billion views.

JLawson: Lots of people enjoy watching train wrecks play out in real time.

Well, sure. That would explain a small number of viewers, but certainly not most of them who clearly find her entertaining.

Aggie: Then he is doubly stupid and nearsighted.

Perhaps, but it is important to properly understand his position rather than argue a straw man.

Aggie: That is not what we see at all in modern society.

Modern? As in the last few years? There's been a long struggle for visibility since long before Barbie was first introduced. We agree there has been significant progress. American today is not the same as it was when Harry Belafonte left TV's Revlon Revue because of objections to integrated casts.

Aggie: What is the actual breakdown of diversity?

In the United States: Non-Hispanic Whites, 59%, male 73%. In Congress: Non-Hispanic Whites 75%, female 27%. The vast majority of racial and ethnic minority members of Congress are Democrats.

Aggie: Now, compare this to exactly the same type of breakdown on commercial television, cable, media, and film.

Relatively recently, representation of minorities in media is closer to that of their shares of the population. They still lag in terms of behind the scenes recognition, such as showrunners, directors and producers.

Aggie: I'll continue to prefer to believe my lying eyes.

We can't know what you think you see without you telling us. Are you saying there is not enough celebration of whiteness?

Correction: In the United States: Non-Hispanic Whites, 59%, male 49%. In Congress: Non-Hispanic Whites 75%, male 73%

mudbug: It was never a problem before

Sure. That's gotta be right. No one really cares about representation in the real world.

mudbug: Is that cute little girl a racist because she might think the black Ariel is prettier than the white Ariel?

Right. Just like women who grew up admiring Marlo Thomas were sexist for seeing her as a role model for what women can do. Or people with Downs Syndrome hate people without Downs Syndrome because they like the new Barbie.

mudbug: So you think that little girl is racist... unbelievable!

In the same way people with Downs Syndrome hate people without Downs Syndrome because they like the new Barbie.

mudbug: Some how we went from the assertion that one’s perception of beauty makes them racist to something about Downs Syndrome kids, Downs Syndrome Barbies, and kids without Downs Syndrome.

Yes, you suggested that little girls were racist, or that we were claiming they were racist, because they were delighted to see someone Black playing the part of Ariel. Meanwhile, elements of the political right insist that a fictional creature that lives in the ocean can't be brown.

mudbug: If you want to address the original issue, this might be worthwhile

Be happy to. You made several claims. You ignore that for centuries, Blacks and other minorities have been told they were ugly and even sub-human. (Do you really need citations?) You ignore that it is more than a simple matter of taste, but something that has been used for centuries to maintain social dominance. Blacks and other minorities have internalized these perceptions. (Think of hair straighteners, and of how natural African hair has been rejected by mainstream society.) Given this history, you still claim that "It was never a problem before," even though it is clear that minorities still hunger for social acceptance and equality in modern culture.

JLawson: One does not simply grift without cause.

You seem to be ignoring a lot of cultural history to wave away his argument. It's clear that cultural views of whiteness as the standard of beauty and power has had a large sway over Western culture. Consider how Jesus is so often depicted in art as a North European.

BornSouthern: And consider how Jesus is depicted in art that is not European or European adjacent.

Because Europeans didn't know anyone of Middle Eastern descent? Seriously?

But this is instructive. Most people picture Jesus as white.

BornSouthern: OTOH you can take your ridiculous insinuation that because someone paints someone, they've only heard about, (and never met) as appearing to look like them as some form of expression of inner racism and stick it.

Several points: We were discussing Western Civilization, particularly American; that the Coptics depicted Jesus as Middle Eastern is not the argument you think it might be; and we provided an example from 1977. Now, Robert Powell, Laurence Olivier, and James Mason are fine actors, but hardly representative of people from the Middle East.

Your point is that artists will depict people with whom they are most familiar. That is certainly true, especially with regards to Medieval art. However, whiteface has been an intrinsic part of white cultural hegemony. It is historically indisputable that cultural depictions of Blacks and other minorities in America have often been demeaning and stereotyped, frequently played by actors in coloredface and that most positive depictions were whitened. That's why minorities have been heartened by increased visibility in positive roles. And it's also why there have been—even in the 21st century America—strong negative negative reactions to black mermaids and brown dwarves. There Is No White Jesus is funny because it's true.

Megyn Kelly, Fox News: "Jesus was a white man too. He was a historical figure, that’s a verifiable fact – as is Santa."

You seem to want to have it three ways: There was never discrimination. We can't erase history (which never happened). But forgeddabout it already.

Hoss: White people create ideals of beauty using white people

In fact, white culture used its position of power to enforce norms of beauty and behavior and excluded minorities from positions of power and visibility including in media. None of this is historically controversial. (Do you really need citations?) Consequently, the research of "whiteness" in culture is a valid area of study.

Lord Heathen: Oikophobia

Denialism : the practice of denying the existence, truth, or validity of something despite proof or strong evidence that it is real, true, or valid.

It is historically indisputable that cultural depictions of Blacks and other minorities in America have often been demeaning and stereotyped, frequently played by actors in coloredface, and that most positive depictions were whitened.

Like all countries, America has experienced honor and dishonor. However, America is best known for its continuing struggle for a more just society, as encapsulated in their founding documents. Even when falling short, America has always tried to learn from its mistakes on its journey towards a more just society. But that doesn't make the history of America go away or of no consequence. Indeed, it is only by confronting injustice that it can be addressed.

But you do have a point. There are many people who claim to love America, but who hate anyone who they feel threatens their notion of the established order. It's always been so. But America continues to strive.