Maggie's Farm

Giorgia Meloni: “Mussolini was a good politician, in that everything he did, he did for Italy.”


Individualism is not confined to the political right, much less defines the political right. Supporters of King Louis XVI were on the political right, by definition, and they were hardly supporters of granting liberty, equality, or even bread to the peasant class. Rather, the right is defined by hierarchicalism. Fascism is placed on the far political right because they advocate for a strictly hierarchical society led by an autocratic dictator, and of a hierarchy of nations.

Notably, Meloni started on the political right, joined a party that had its roots in fascism, and is still seen as being on the political right. That doesn't mean the party hasn't changed, or that she hasn't changed, but the fear of autocracy is not meritless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qo-uiAq58

mudbug: Joe Biden (as well as many others) joined a party that promoted slavery, instituted a violent faction . . .

And then, the Democratic Party changed in a very public battle against racial discrimination and segregation, splintering the party. The white segregationists nationalists migrated to the Republican Party, while Blacks and other minorities moved to the Democratic Party. All this would indicate that the change is real and the fear is something made up by those who still fear equality.

Meloni's party, Fratelli d'Italia, has also changed. Meloni has probably changed. But she has also pointed towards Hungary's version of electoral autocracy as a model.

mudbug: Significant factions in it promote reparations for slavery (taking money from people who never owned or even promoted segregation much less slavery

The institutions that engaged in slavery and segregation are still in existence. The institutions retain the moral liability even if the individuals have changed. Whether seeking reparations is wise or not is a different matter.

mudbug: white guilt for slavery.

Sure there is some of that, but the primary movement is for recognition of wrongs (which are being resisted strenuously as in the discussion of Montpelier) and the lingering effects of racism or systemic racism.

As for Meloni, she is not an insignificant or fringe figure, and she has pointed to Hungarian electoral autocracy as a model. If some fringe character in the Republican Party says Mexico is sending people who are "bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people," it may suggest a problem in the Republican Party. But when the the person who would become the Republican nominee and president says that, it more than suggests an extreme rightward tilt in the party.

mudbug: Yes, the Democratic party is still in existence.

As is the United States, and the states that constituted the Confederacy.

mudbug: If you speeches and writings of many influential people on the left and in the Democrat Party and exchanged the terms for white with terms for black, they would be indistinguishable from what Democrats said throughout Reconstruction and Jim Crow.

You might try some examples, especially those with significant political power. You should also realize that the cry for white power has a different social meaning than the cry for black power.

mudbug: {Systemic racism} is a term that is rarely defined.

"Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization. It manifests as discrimination in areas such as criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, education, and political representation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

A simple example of systemic racism, the old boy network. Assume a segregated society at the end of Jim Crow. Assume, also, that all vestiges of personal bigotry are suddenly and magically eliminated. Consider a grocery store where nearly all positions, especially those in management are held by whites, a legacy of the previous epoch of segregation. The store wants to hire a new employee. The white managers ask people in their white neighborhoods and their white churches and among their white coworkers for recommendations. As whites constitute a segregated community, the recommendations are almost certainly other white people. Furthermore, they are more comfortable hiring the son of someone in their church rather than someone they don't know who may have a different cultural background. The result is continuation of white privilege—even assuming all vestiges of bigotry have been eliminated. Now, add in some vestigial bigotry to the mix.

mudbug: Why are black immigrants, especially Nigerians, as a group more successful and prosperous than any other ethnic groups - even whites?

Because they are a highly selected group of Nigerians with high levels of education and background, and they don't carry the social vestiges of past discrimination in American society. When Blacks in America would improve their condition, they were often burned out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC6p0JeKiiw&t=161s

For instance, the descendants of slaves freed before the Civil War (such as those freed from Nomini Hall) have generally higher incomes and substantially higher net worth than those who were freed only in the aftermath of the Civil War.

indyjonesouthere: The "left" always defines the "right".

The terms have an objective origin. The distinction comes from the French revolutionary period, a period when the monarchy had concentrated all power unto itself. Those who supported the powers of the monarchy sat on the right of the National Assembly, while those who supported abolishing the monarchy and establishing a Republic sat on the left. The middle was occupied by those who advocated for a constitutionally limited monarchy.


indyjonesouthere: But fails to acknowledge the authoritarian/totalitarian nature of its own self.

There are plenty of examples of authoritarianism on the political left (Stalin) and on the political right (Mussolini).

indyjonesouthere: It's an academic definition created by academics.

That is incorrect. The origin was from practice not academics. As Baron de Gauville noted: "We began to recognize each other: those who were loyal to religion and the king took up positions to the right of the chair so as to avoid the shouts, oaths, and indecencies that enjoyed free rein in the opposing camp". The press had already begun to use the terms at the time.

jack walter: What is implied, but you didn't mention, is that the terms right and left wing have no meaning in American politics. There is no right wing here; it's not possible.

Of course the terms have continued relevance in American politics. The term political right is regularly used for Republicans generally, and specifically for those who advocate for the unfettered power of business, or for social conservatives who advocate for more government control of personal lives. (Both parties used to be more diverse. There were liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats, but partisan sorting has changed that.)


jack walter: Also, fascism is not right wing.

Fascism was considered to be on the political right at the time. Today, fascism is still considered to be on the political right. Neo-fascists are considered to be on the political right. Meloni started on the political right, joined a party that had its roots in fascism, and is still seen as being on the political right.

jack walter: Mussolini accurately called it a third way, neither right nor left.

Mussolini was referring to his economic policy, but fascism is not primarily an economic philosophy.

"Granted that the nineteenth century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the twentieth century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right', a Fascist century." — Benito Mussolini

Ammesso che il sec. XIX sia stato il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia, non è detto che anche il sec. XX debba essere il secolo del socialismo, del liberalismo, della democrazia. Le dottrine politiche passano, i popoli restano. Si può pensare che questo sia il secolo dell’autorità, un secolo di «destra», un secolo fascista.

jack walter: They have continued relevance by American socialists, but they have no objective meaning.

Again, the terms political left and political right have wide currency, not just in scholarship, but in common usage. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the evidence.

jack walter: Is our constitution right wing? Is federalism right wing?

Republicanism was certainly to the political left of George III, though the Constitution predates the term by a couple of years.

jack walter: It's clear in the speech you linked that Meloni is a socialist.

Huh? Where did we link to a speech by Meloni?

jack walter: Is that why the media agreed, in solidarity, to compare her to Mussolini?

The comparison is due to her saying that Mussolini was a good politician, of being the leader of a party with its roots in fascism, whose representatives have praised fascist leaders, and of being allies with the party of the overtly racist Matteo Salvini.

Now, Meloni has tried to present a more moderate position. Only time will tell whether this is a sincere effort or just a way to camouflage a more reactionary agenda. But the link between Meloni and fascism is not fantasy. Nor is it valid in light of this to reject the link between fascism and the far-right.

Aggie: he certainly never became a proponent of Capitalism, except in tightly-controlled service to State Authority.

Again, fascism is not an economic philosophy, but a political ideology characterized by ultranationalism, militarism, and a belief in strict social and national hierarchies. It is socialist only in the sense that the military is socialist. Everyone gets fed, but there is a strict and controlling hierarchy.

Aggie: To call his form of government, which 'controlled the means of production' in a highly authoritarian way, 'right wing' is absurd.

Except virtually everybody did then and still do now. Fascists are on the political right because they advocate for hierarchies. At rallies, such as Unite the Right, where people display fascist style emblems and chant white nationalist slogans, everyone says they are on the far political right. You are conflating it with the authoritarian-libertarian spectrum which is orthogonal to the left-right spectrum.

indyjonesouthere: Every single argument you have made to me, walter, and aggie are ALL academic arguments coming straight out of the academy.

In fact, you were provided specific evidence from both historical and current usage.

Aggie: Bullsh*t, but nice try.

You make a powerful argument, but the evidence contradicts your position.

Is history only the narratives of so-called great people? Or should history also tell the story of the ordinary people that make up society? Do great people drive history, or do they just ride the tides of change generated by greater social forces? Which was more significant, the development of the plow or Alexander?

Slaves were an important part of Madison's home, life, and prosperity. They were the people he and his family interacted with on a daily basis. Slaves were part of the fabric of life in Virginia at that time, and their legacy lives on.

Copper has dropped significantly just in the last few months. Lithium is way up, but there substantial reserves which can be tapped, and new technologies which will reduce the need for lithium.

Markets can solve many (albeit not all) problems with resource scarcity.

OneGuy: Copper has "dropped" because the economy has "dropped".

Yes, there are reasons the price has dropped, but the claim was that copper prices are skyrocketing. It's always best to start with accurate information.

feeblemind: If you remove the heavy hand of government central planners, the markets have been unwavering in telling us NOT to build windmills.

Markets don't incorporate the downstream social costs, such as water pollution. Left to their own devices, people upstream will take all the fresh water and leave only pollution.