Censoring Ukraine information

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Wednesday, April 13. 2022

Censoring Ukraine information

Greenwald: Western Dissent from US/NATO Policy on Ukraine is Small, Yet the Censorship Campaign is Extreme. Preventing populations from asking who benefits from a protracted proxy war, and who pays the price, is paramount. A closed propaganda system achieves that.

Looks like a proxy war, with NATO (aka USA). I am unclear re US interest there. Clarify it for me, please. I do not understand why Russia has to be an adversary. They do not have a nice government, but few countries do.

Posted by The News Junkie in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 11:25 | Comments (47) | Trackbacks (0)

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re I am unclear re US interest there. Clarify it for me, please. I do not understand why Russia has to be an adversary.

Yeah . . . Me too.

#1 feeblemind on 2022-04-13 12:45 (Reply)

Indeed.

Many years ago (Cold War) I used to think I understood these things. There were many machinations in the diplomatic, military and intelligence worlds, but the general "good guys vs bad guys" model held sway. We were the good guys (freedom), they were the bad guys (totalitarian).

That lens worked. It meant that a lot of bad ideas didn't need empirical proof to show they were bad. The Nuclear Freeze movement couldn't get close to the finish line, human rights based foreign policy (Jimmy C.) got trumped by his own administration's realpolitik. Empirical proof, which was always plentiful, rarely failed to prove the rule. Think about the fall of South Vietnam and Cambodia.

Later, Iran-Contra couldn't get a lot independent minded people excited because the legal and ethical problems couldn't scale the heights of the good guy - bad guy thing. (Though it did lay bear for all the see the problem of clever machinations by insiders, what we now term the deep state.)

My guess is there are many "too clever by half" schemes (or at least thought processes) as to why this Ukraine thing is a good idea. But I can't see what the moral argument or strategic end game is. If Putin implodes, what does that get anybody? If Putin pulls back, what changes? If Putin wins, what really changes? Instead the constant impugning of Putin, no one seems to be clear about his goals? If Ukraine is triumphant, so what? (BUT you do have to admire their marketing!)

In just about any scenario, Ukraine will still be a corrupt, minor state that grows a lot of wheat and has a bunch of gas wells in the east. Russia will still be Europe's gas station. Russia will still be a corrupt state with a declining population and ongoing brain drain. Unless the Climatistas lose all influence, Europe, the US and British Commonwealth countries will likely continue to pursue stupid energy policies. The media will stumble onto a new fake crisis no matter what.

It was a lot easier when we had a moral compass!

#2 Nat Brooks on 2022-04-13 12:53 (Reply)

The Ukraine affair is all about defeating Germany . https://www.unz.com/mhudson/america-defeats-germany-for-the-third-time-in-a-century/

#3 Ulithi on 2022-04-13 13:07 (Reply)

I do not understand why Russia has to be an adversary. Well, neither do I but the NWO, Build Back Better, 3rd way requires Russia be subservient to the globalist empire.
They do not have a nice government. And neither do we. Ours is corrupted to the core. There is a reason that the globalist uniparty is terrified by Trump supporters.

#4 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-13 13:40 (Reply)

You do understand that it was Russia who invaded. Russia made the choice not us. Russia doesn't have to be an adversary but they chose to be. I think Ukrainians should fight to keep their country and to stay alive. I think this issue is critical for Europe and all European countries should send aid and arms. Russia doesn't intend to stop with Ukraine. They will eventually invade half a dozen other Eastern European countries as well. We can sit and watch if that makes you happy but I would prefer that Every Eastern European country began today to make every male citizen between 18 and 65 a soldier and to give them training and a weapon to keep in their home for when Russia crosses their border. Playing nice doesn't work.

#5 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 13:44 (Reply)

Perhaps, but why is that a US problem? Why is the US in NATO anyway, at this point?

Just asking - not a Russia-lover.

#5.1 BD on 2022-04-13 13:51 (Reply)

Why was the 2nd WW in Europe a U.S. problem? Answer that and you will know why this is a problem. WW III is coming. Burying your head in the sand won't stop it. I don't want it, you don't want it but it is coming anyway. So the choice is to prepare for it or surrender.

That also answers the NATO question. If Russia decides to take over Europe one country at a time and all the countries stand up to Russia then Russia cannot win. NATO is the only thing that prevents Russia from doing that.

We should not fight in Ukraine, but we should support Ukraine's right to fight including giving them weapons.

#5.1.1 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 15:27 (Reply)

I’m not getting the World War 2 comparison. Germany was literally trying to take over all of Europe; at the same time trying to exterminate an entire people. In the previous decade, Russia had previously starved to death millions of Ukrainians. As an aside, The New York Times lied about both atrocities. With Italy, they (Germany) were trying to take over all of N. Africa. Japan, in the Pacific, was taking over China and points south. America was being boxed in. It was only a matter of time, and Roosevelt knew this, before America would have to be involved. Our security would depend on it.

You’ll get no argument from me that Russia is the bad guy. They had no right to invade, and the Ukrainian’s have every right to defend themselves. Putin wants the the resources of Ukraine. As far as I can tell, our corrupt federal politicians want Ukraine for their money laundering schemes.

Ten years ago, I would have been all in on defending Ukraine. Let’s kill some Russians. Besides the common person in Ukraine (pawns like myself - cannon fodder), I am seriously trying to figure out who the good guys are. I don’t trust anyone from DC, and I sure as hell don’t trust the Europeans. Europe has never had Americas best interest in mind. How is Ukraine America’s security problem?

#5.1.1.1 B. Hammer on 2022-04-13 16:34 (Reply)

B. Hammer: Germany was literally trying to take over all of Europe

The comparison is to the leadup to war before Hitler's designs were made plain. Germany had retaken what Hitler considered ethnic German areas, including the Rhineland and Austria. Hitler then reached an agreement with Britain, France, and Italy, wherein Hitler pledged peace in return for the Sudetenland, the last ethnically German region not under German control. When Hitler invaded Poland, he broke that promise. Poland was an ally of Britain and France, so the invasion of Poland necessarily led to war.

Russia had promised to honor Ukraine's borders. Even so, Russia first took Crimea and then backed separatists in Donbas, claiming they had a right to do so to protect ethnic Russians living there. Then Russia invaded Ukraine proper, breaking any semblance of honoring their commitment to Ukraine's sovereignty, threatening to engulf Europe in war.

The comparison is not exact, but it does have some merit.

#5.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 17:03 (Reply)

OK. You are assuming that Russia will stop with Ukraine. That is the Neville Chamberlain school of diplomacy. Appease the beast maybe he will eat us last. I don't know what will happen. My point is not that it is all a foregone conclusion, but rather lets go with the obvious. Russia has a history and this is what they do, i.e. gobble up Eastern Europe one country at a time while claiming some birthright to do that. I am not say we should go full kinetic war with Russia. What I am saying is I believe Ukraine has a right to defend itself and Europe has a vested interest in at worst making Russia pay a huge price for taking Ukraine and at best keeping Russia from taking Western Ukraine. AND most importantly all of Europe and us too, waking up to the fact that we are at war. Call it a cold war or a warm war but war is going on and war promises to get much worse in half a dozen places around the world. And waking up to that means prepare for war, especially Europe. Every country in Eastern Europe should immediately move to a war footing. Training every swinging dick to be a soldier and giving everyone of them a weapon to keep at home. You may not care about war but war cares about you.

#5.1.1.1.2 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 17:08 (Reply)

I'm certainly not trying to appease Russia, or give in to Putin, so I hardly think the Chamberlain reference is fair. Similar arguments were hurled at G. Washington during the French Revolution; after the Neutrality Proclamation. Which, to this day contains some good advice: "that the [United States] should with sincerity and good faith adopt and pursue a conduct friendly and impartial toward the belligerent Powers." But, I must restate, that what Russia is doing, is wrong. Very much so.

Really, with what we have seen so far, I don't think that the Russian military is something to be feared. If reports are to be believed, Russia is retreating from Kiev. What do they have left to push further into Europe? One must ask: What does the American military have left? We have a bunch of honorable men in the rank and file. They are lead by a bunch of woke ninnies.

#5.1.1.1.2.1 B. Hammer on 2022-04-13 17:51 (Reply)

All of that is a different discussion. My only point(s) are that Ukraine was invaded, they have a right and an obligation to defend themselves. It is in Europe's best interest (and ours as part of NATO) to help Ukraine defend itself by giving them aid and weapons. And even the worst possible outcome, i.e. Russia eventually takes all of Ukraine and destroys the resistance, is bad for Russia and good for Europe. I am not advocating U.S. or NATO boots on the ground or planes in the air. And none of this is changed or in anyway affected by the fact that some Ukrainian politicians were corrupt or that Russia is not happy with NATO. None of that matters to the central question(s): does Ukraine have the right to defend itself and is it in Europe's (and the U.S.) best interest for Ukraine to defend itself.

#5.1.1.1.2.1.1 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 19:11 (Reply)

Ten years ago I would also have supported the defense of Ukraine but after the Ukraine politicians failed to legally impeach their dually elected president in 2014, they deposed him by force and this was likely abetted by the US state department of war and the CIA. There is no legitimate government in the Ukraine and even then they began artillary, missile and ground strikes against the Donbas. Was Russia supposed to accept genocide against Russians in the western part of Ukraine? I think not.

#5.1.1.1.3 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-13 18:43 (Reply)

indyjonesouthere: Ten years ago I would also have supported the defense of Ukraine but after the Ukraine politicians failed to legally impeach their dually elected president in 2014

Yanukovych was a mobster in the pocket of Russia. His mansion even had a galleon!

https://ukrainetrek.com/blog/people/inside-the-residence-of-former-ukrainian-president/

#5.1.1.1.3.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 20:50 (Reply)

He was the legally elected president of the Ukraine. They failed to impeach him and then resorted to ousting him in a coup, likely aided and abetted by the state dept and the CIA. Zelensky has a mansion in Miami. Mansions seem to be a thing among the Ukraine oligarchs. Makes it easy for the US to buy his support in order to harass Russia with Nato next door. Let's see if the US would welcome Russia or China into Cuba or Venezuela. The Biden family certainly has a warm relationship with Ukraine oligarchs along with the Pelosi, Romney, and Kerry clan. May as well have a sign out stating that "We welcome foreign aid and well connected 10% grifters.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-14 11:22 (Reply)

indyjonesouthere: They failed to impeach him and then resorted to ousting him in a coup

Yanukovych fled the country before the impeachment vote. He used the security forces to attack protesters and keep people from voting.

indyjonesouthere: Zelensky has a mansion in Miami.

Zelenskyy was a highly compensated entertainer. He made his money by working for it, not by corruptly siphoning off the wealth of Ukraine as did Yanukovych.

indyjonesouthere: The Biden family certainly has a warm relationship with Ukraine oligarchs along with the Pelosi, Romney, and Kerry clan.

The Obama administration worked with Ukraine to reduce corruption there. Trump, on the other hand, withheld vital military aid when seeking a personal political favor.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-14 11:51 (Reply)

He fled the country...when you have snipers executing police and others from rooftops then I rather imagine he would fear for his life. Who do you suppose provided and paid for those snipers? Just listen to those poor dems rattled about Jan 6. In spite of the failed impeachment vote the Ukraine thugs still failed to remove him legitimately. Just like the DC thuggers failed to impeach Trump. It is amazing how the deep state keeps recycling their political schemes.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-14 13:03 (Reply)

He fled the country...: He fled the country...

Compare to Zelenskyy who is being hunted by special Russian murder squads.

indyjonesouthere: when you have snipers executing police and others from rooftops

The snipers killed four police officers and 48 protesters. Russia then immediately annexed Crimea. What a coincidence!

Berkut security officers were charged, but were traded to Russia in a prisoner exchange. A vast trove of data has been analyzed by modern technology, recreating the three-dimensional space of the attacks. But sure, keep believing Russia propaganda.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-14 13:54 (Reply)

Zelensky should be hunted for the genocide he committed on the Donbas region. There is also evidence that it was the Ukrainians that fired the missile at the train station. It would appear he is a confirmed murderer. Why would the Russians allow the same thing to happen in Crimea as in the Ukraine? Not only that but the Crimea is the Russian naval base in the Black Sea. You're believing the State dept and CIA propaganda and they have been drumming up this BS since 2014 and it even showed up as Hunter Biden and old 10% corruption during the Trump administration. You never seem to learn.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-14 15:09 (Reply)

indyjonesouthere: Zelensky should be hunted for the genocide he committed on the Donbas region.

Putin keeps making such claims, but never provides evidence. He's an aggressor making up stuff to justify his actions. Echoing baseless claims doesn't somehow make them true.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-14 16:03 (Reply)

The claims are not baseless. You need to read something more than HuffPo or watch something other than CNN. The missile fragments from the train station shows the serial number of the missile. Other missiles fired by the Ukrainians have serial numbers that surround this missile. Try providing better diversions to your narrative.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-14 22:28 (Reply)

indyjonesouthere: The missile fragments from the train station shows the serial number of the missile.

Russian fakery.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-980459712302

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-14 22:47 (Reply)

An AP fact check...that's hilarious. Here is another AP fact check headline from Breitbart:
It's not "grooming" to sexualize young kids away from parents

They sold their soul to woke politics.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-04-15 18:27 (Reply)

indyjonesouthere: An AP fact check

We showed it is part of Russian propaganda. You offered no countervailing evidence.

#5.1.1.1.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-15 20:28 (Reply)

"Why was the 2nd WW in Europe a U.S. problem?" Maybe this is a simple answer to what I imagine you believe to be a complicated and nuanced question, but..
1) Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and we and the Empire mutually declared war on each other, and
2) Germany declared war on the USA.
See how easy it is to see the difference?

#5.1.1.2 Steve on 2022-04-14 07:24 (Reply)

Because when Ukraine declared independence from the USSR the United States, in exchange for them giving up the nuclear devices they had on Ukrainian soil, promised to help protect them.

Not a formal treaty, but a written promise.

Now, politicians and governments break promises all the time.

In this case though we've made similar promises to a lot of countries, which means that now Taiwan etc. will be building nukes, and you can bet your last dollar that should Ukraine survive this, they will too.

This is massively destabilizing.

#5.1.2 William O. B'Livion on 2022-04-13 19:44 (Reply)

William O. B'Livion: Because when Ukraine declared independence from the USSR the United States, in exchange for them giving up the nuclear devices they had on Ukrainian soil, promised to help protect them.

That is incorrect. What the signatories (U.K., U.S., Russia) promised was to “respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine”. There was never a promise for military intervention other than seeking U.N. assistance if Ukraine should become the victim of aggression.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170312052208/http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484

#5.1.2.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 20:37 (Reply)

Exactly. Hear, hear!

#5.1.3 Erasmus on 2022-04-13 20:49 (Reply)

Shallow and simplistic thinking. You need to dig down a few more layers and maybe consider a couple of decades of Ukrainian history. And quite assuming the powers that control the US and NATO are benign. They aren't.

Why Russia attacked Ukraine isn't that important (though they'd been warning us for 10 years or more). What matters is why would we keep pushing them into it?

#5.2 ruralcounsel on 2022-04-13 14:46 (Reply)

"Shallow and simplistic thinking." Great! You are the smartest man in the room and you prove it by insulting people. I knew more about Ukraine before you were born (probably based on your youthful bravado) than you know today. If you believe that because someone did something 10, 20 50 years ago THAT means Russia can invade and rape and kill indiscriminately then I'm wasting my time and energy responding to you. Ukraine TODAY, not in history and not what anyone did prior to today is being invaded and I believe that they have a right to defend themselves and their country... Period! That's it. That's my entire opinion on this. Tell me where I'm wrong.

#5.2.1 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 15:33 (Reply)

This is Peter Zeihan's argument and there is some truth to it. However, that the US political establishment has been deliberately provocatively towards Russia, including the expansion of NATO eastward despite James Baker's promise to Gorbachev not to do so, cannot be denied. Zeihan's argument is that Russia needs to secure for itself 9 passage points in order to secure itself from foreign invasion and that all 8 of these places now lie in other countries. The way to prevent Russia from doing so is to get it tied down in an "endless" quagmire in Ukraine so that they run out of soldiers and demographic decline does the rest.

This is a credible scenario. But the problem I have with it is that I do not think out political class is capable of the strategic thinking that is required to carry out such a scenario.

#5.3 Abelard Lindsey on 2022-04-16 22:02 (Reply)

The US Government has been overtaken by Globalists (think Davos/WEF) types. Our foreign policy has been directed by them for a decade or more now. We are working for them. And our Military Industrial Complex sees a way to profit by doing the Globalists bidding too.

And what d they want? They want to destabilize Russia's government. Just like we did Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq.

Why? Because Russia is a country wealthy in natural resources. And these globalists profit immensely when they can make those governments fall, and they swoop in and buy up the assets on the cheap. That's how Soros made his money, though he did it through currency manipulation, not regime change. The Klaus Schwab types are like the Nazis, and they do it by making nations fail.

And getting Russia entangled with a war in the Ukraine was supposed to destabilize them when the West imposed all those sanctions. So far it doesn't appear to be working, but the Globalist track record isn'v that good, so no surprise.

The Ukraine was just the cheese bait in the trap for Russia as the west (NATO/EU/WEF) tried to poke the Bear into something that would justify the sanctions.

#6 ruralcounsel on 2022-04-13 14:41 (Reply)

feeblemind: I do not understand why Russia has to be an adversary.

It doesn't have to be. The U.S. has made repeated efforts, perhaps naïvely, to draw Russia into the community of nations, and to show that there is a more prosperous future to be had in peace than in conflict. But Putin chose another path. He invaded a sovereign nation despite his promise not to do so, in violation of the fundamental international law against aggression.

OneGuy: Russia made the choice not us. Russia doesn't have to be an adversary but they chose to be.

What OneGuy said.

Nat Brooks: But I can't see what the moral argument or strategic end game is.

To show that aggression comes with a high cost, to act as a deterrent to future misadventures.

BD: Perhaps, but why is that a US problem? Why is the US in NATO anyway, at this point?

In the modern world, what happens "over there" affects what happens "over here."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYV044H5muI&t=59s

ruralcounsel: The Ukraine was just the cheese bait in the trap for Russia

We can all come up with a multitude of reasons why the German people in the 1930s were angry at the world, but Nazism offered a fantasy of revenge that engulfed the whole world.

#7 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 14:45 (Reply)

But we're the one's acting like the Nazi's. Except we are shoving Ukrainians up front as our human shields.

Russia has shown no interest in retaking the Baltic states. We are the true aggressors here.

#7.1 ruralcounsel on 2022-04-13 14:49 (Reply)

ruralcounsel: But we're the one's acting like the Nazi's.

Uh, no. America and the West are not acting like Nazis. Not even close. It was Russia that invaded a sovereign country, a weaker neighbor, after having promised to honor its borders, and in violation of the most fundamental rule of international law.

#7.1.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 14:52 (Reply)

From what I can make out, the Ukrainians at risk and the Ukranians running the govt aren't the same peoples.

They're being used as human shields by the oligarchs currently running Ukraine.

#7.1.2 B on 2022-04-14 12:11 (Reply)

Uh, yes. We pushed them into it. It is as much our fault as it is the Russians.

Try to think beyond your base kneejerk jingoistic patriotism. We've been pushing them for over a decade. It is NATO that has "captured" more and more territory, moving up to Russia's border. Russia is just doing what they told us they would do if we went too far.

But the GLobalists don't care about Ukraine. They are willingly sacrificing them as a means to destabilize Russia. Because the Russians wouldn't let the Globalists run roughshod over them.

#8 ruralcounsel on 2022-04-13 15:04 (Reply)

ruralcounsel: We pushed them into it.

Even if Russia has legitimate grievances, it doesn't justify invading a sovereign country, leveling cities, and threatening to plunge the world into a wider conflict.

ruralcounsel: It is NATO that has "captured" more and more territory, moving up to Russia's border.

NATO expansion was made by sovereign countries freely entering into the alliance.

#8.1 Zachriel on 2022-04-13 15:22 (Reply)

"It is NATO that has "captured" more and more territory, moving up to Russia's border."

That one sentence explains everything you got wrong. You use the word "capture" as though NATO was an aggressor or somehow wrong. NATO is nothing more than a mutual protection agreement intended to prevent aggression.

As for moving up to Russia's border, that is insanely stupid. It would only be meaningful if NATO went past Russia's border. Because everything outside of Russia's border is NOT Russia!!! Now Sweden and Finland want to join NATO. WHY? Because Putin took off his mask and Sweden and Finland are justifiably scared or Russia. The best possibly thing that could happen to Europe is that any "European" Country that wants to join it does so AND that NATO takes this all more seriously and spends enough on defense so any attack on a NATO country would be suicide.

#8.2 JustMe on 2022-04-13 15:41 (Reply)

Wait, what were we talking about again? Was it propaganda and the lack of reliable journalism coverage?

There can be only one reason to squelch truthful news coverage and in-depth reporting: Somebody doesn't want your to know and understand their business. Information transfer has become so instantaneous and ubiquitous via social media, that control must now be exerted centrally - as is happening, as it has been happening for the past 5 years in our ongoing Class War. It just happens to be the first time we've seen centralized control of the information stream on the actual battlefield.

Sometimes I wonder if the Ukraine is seen as a frontier of corrupt business opportunities in a political system that is open to 'pay-to-play', just as the Soviet Union became during its own collapse, as each of the satellites moved away from centralized control. And a fairly small number of policy makers in the US are protecting their deals wearing a cape of concerned, diplomatic nationalism. It is not in the best interest of the US to expand NATO, at our expense, for the benefit of Europe. It is not in the interest of Europe to antagonize their energy provider. It has been Russia's stated intention to prevent foreign NATO armaments on their border, and their deliberate stated displeasure to see NATO's expansion doing precisely that for the past 20 years, nation by nation. What does any of this have to do with the US, to cause a need to censor? Good Question! Too bad the answer is classified, eh?

#9 Aggie on 2022-04-13 16:57 (Reply)

It is obviously possible that two different things can be happening at the same time. You can be 100% correct the Ukraine is corrupt and that Western interests want to maintain connection with corrupt Ukraine AND that the civilians being killed in Ukraine and the invasion justifies Ukrainians fighting Russia AND that it is in Europe's best interest that Ukraine continue to fight Russia no matter what the final outcome is.

Or to put it another way regardless of Ukraine's politicians past corruption that does NOT negate Ukraine's right of self defense and Europe's need to disabuse Russia's desire to take back USSR conquests in Eastern Europe.

#9.1 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 17:16 (Reply)

OK, but the other side of that blade is this: Ukraine's right of self-defense does NOT provide cover for the protection of every other corrupt interest that has a stake, to grant material support for the war. If the US wants to support Ukraine with cash and armaments, then our policy makers must be transparent about precisely what they are defending and what their objectives are, and how the arrangements are defined at the back end. And also to state their safeguards for audit and transparency that these gifts are being dispatched as agreed, and not winding up in personal suitcases - as we have seen recently.

To ask us (those footing the bill in dollars and lives) for trust, as if they are the unbiased, experienced, nuanced adults, as if they have the integrity and forbearance at that level, is to ask too much - for they are the same ones actively censoring the news coverage with a very effective, proxied Central Control.

They are the ones that have had the Social Media empires sitting in front of them in Congressional Hearings, exhorting them to censor the voices of dissent and opposition, to censor and censor even more, limiting the information flow, and demanding implicitly that we base all of our understanding and judgment on the pablum that they are shoveling into our mouths with that long-handled spoon.

I find that when political and/or social groups are actively working against your interests, it is best to assume the worst of them, and their intentions. So far - at least with this bunch - it hasn't been badly wrong.

#9.1.1 Aggie on 2022-04-13 17:56 (Reply)

In my opinion our government and European governments should only give Ukraine weapons and food (possibly training). No cash or equivalents.

To be honest I am more concerned that "we" the U.S. is promptly replacing those weapons in our arsenal. That worries me far more than any Ukranian corruptness.

#9.1.1.1 OneGuy on 2022-04-13 19:17 (Reply)

Greenwald predicted what was going to happen very, very wrongly and has been accusing others of all sorts of malfeasance since. He has not admitted in even a teeny way he was in error. I have liked him recently, but on this issue I simply pay no attention.

First take the log out of your own eye, Glenn, and they you may see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

#10 Assistant Village Idiot on 2022-04-13 17:20 (Reply)

There are lots of places on the internet to obtain news and views of the Ukraine and Russia situation. Read them all with appropriate skepticism but don't close your mind to the truth, it can be roughly determined by correlating from multiple sources and adjusting for their biases.

We now have multiple studies-of-warfare sites staffed by a wide range of expertise, mostly hands-on skills people who are clearly not captive to national intelligence services or military hierarchies. Lots of learned commentators who intimately know the subject matters of historical Russia, Ukraine, Eastern Europe region as well as general statecraft and strategy.

Read widely, check their biases, and reach your own conclusions.

Notice that Switzerland abandoned historical neutrality to support financial sanctions on Russia. Centuries of neutrality for Sweden and Finland going out the door as they are now requesting NATO membership.

Do you seriously think that the West was insensitive to Russia's interests and forced them to threaten the neighborhood by flying nuclear bombers over Finland and Sweden, seized Crimea, attacked Ukraine? Is corruption in Ukraine responsible for the blood-curdling propaganda in Russia regarding exterminating Nazis not only in Ukraine but all their other targets?

We have battles to fight within our own society and our internal politics, we can't trust our own institutions, but we can educate ourselves, gather the resources to determine the truth, and resist evil and decay abroad as well as at home.

#11 Ed on 2022-04-13 17:50 (Reply)

Biden has justified US involvement against Russia because Putin is an evil criminal intent on killing innocent Ukrainians.

Iran is run by evil criminals intent on killing innocent US citizens and Biden wants to help them develop their nuclear capabilities.

#12 mike on 2022-04-13 23:43 (Reply)

And they aren't the only ones. I don't insist on consistency as the only factor in foreign policy, but it is at least one we should notice and stop to think about.

#12.1 Assistant Village Idiot on 2022-04-14 10:38 (Reply)

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Wednesday, April 13. 2022

Censoring Ukraine information