There are no good guys in the Ukraine story

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Thursday, March 24. 2022

There are no good guys in the Ukraine story

Of course I feel badly for all victims of this stupid war - Ukrainian citizens, Ukrainian fighters, Russian soldiers, etc. Bad for all involved. We all like narratives of good vs bad.

A commenter at Althouse ("Tim in Vermont") pretty much reflects my view:

Let's look at every reason but the expansion of a hostile and aggressive military alliance to Russia's border, because if we look at Putin's stated reasons, which every foreign policy expert who wasn't a neocon took for granted since we promised Gorbachov not to expand NATO east, that makes us the baddies, therefore we do these Putin mind-reading exercises to avoid dealing with our own culpability in this matter.

Russia's border is NATO's manifest destiny, right? My country, right or wrong, right? Ignorance is strength! We have been here before and it is not a proud chapter in our history.

Why did the Ukrainians undertake an offensive operation into Donbass (Where they have been committing war crimes like using white phosphorus artillery on civilian populations, BTW, for 8 years) , striking a match in the tinderbox, when Russian troops were massed on Ukraine's border, except to instigate a war?

Now the US strategy, cheered on here, is to drag out the war to maximize Russia's losses, no matter the cost in Ukrainian lives. We will see who comes out of this beloved by the victims in this war.

Posted by The News Junkie in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 12:34 | Comments (18) | Trackbacks (0)

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So the commenter reading Russian agitprop is your position maker? Talk to some Eastern Europeans about Russia today and you will get a much more realistic answer.

The best picture of Russia today is in the Norwegian Mini-Series "Occupied". Fiction but not very far from reality. If you look around for countries that want out of the Russian sphere of influence you get Belarus, Kazakhstan, Finland, and even Sweden. The Putin era Russia is a risk worldwide supporting Cuba, Venezuela, and others. I know more than a few companies here in CT that hire highly skilled Ukrainian Programmers. That's their offering to the world plus wheat! Not neo-nazis or drug addled goons (that the Russians).

#1 dirtyjobsguy on 2022-03-24 12:53 (Reply)

Did you call me a Russian stooge? Please. You don't know me. Plus you missed my whole point.

#1.1 The NJ on 2022-03-24 13:07 (Reply)

The USA and Nato do not care about the Ukrainian people getting killed. They only care about lashing out against Russia. This whole thing is the West's fault. The blood is on our hands. Incredibly stupid people in the foreign policy elites foisted this on us which could lead to WW3. Now, 40,000 Nato Troops are heading to the eastern nations of Nato. Just how will Russia think about this? More threats. That big red Nuke button is starting to glow.

#2 Gary Foster on 2022-03-24 13:18 (Reply)

Another opinion

FROM COVID-19 TO PUTIN-22: WHO NEEDS FRIENDS WITH ENEMIES LIKE THESE?

https://thephilosophicalsalon.com/from-covid-19-to-putin-22-who-needs-friends-with-enemies-like-these/

#3 Jake on 2022-03-24 13:21 (Reply)

Ukraine: Where News Goes to Die

“War is hell, and truth doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance. With all stories of violence and bloodshed coming out of eastern Europe, readers might be forgiven for missing the news that Ukraine’s defender of democracy and champion of freedom Volodymyr Zelensky suspended 11 opposition political parties over the weekend. This comes just after he nationalised all broadcast media to enforce a “unified information policy” under martial law. Ukraine’s liberal president Volodymyr Zelensky is looking increasingly like Canada’s Liberal prime minister Justin Trudeau. As the war drags on, he is approaching the stature of New Zealand’s “single source of truth”, Jacinda Ardern. No wonder the global media loves him.”

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2022/03/ukraine-where-news-goes-to-die/

#3.1 Jake on 2022-03-24 13:25 (Reply)

When Will Russia Run Out of Soldiers? Tanks?

QUOTE:

There are estimates that Russia has lost 40,000 soldiers (killed or wounded) out of 190,000 after the first three weeks of the Russia-Ukraine war. Russia has 900,000 in the military but this includes Navy and Air Force. Russia has about 250,000-300,000 in the Army. Russia has 2 million in reserve but those are mostly x-conscripts and 14 million men of military age (18-30).

Putting more untrained people into this conflict will just get most of them killed. One of the Russian problems is the poor training of its military. The other aspect is that the death and wounded rates could go up if Russia commits to major urban warfare. If the supply line situation is as bad as some reports indicate then the 70,000 soldiers in the north could run out of ammo and food and collapse. This would mean a lot killed, wounded and captured.

Russia started the war with 1200 Tanks committed to the conflict. Russia had about 2800 active tanks. They had about 10,000 Soviet-era tanks in storage. Those tanks in storage were not modernized and are even more crappy that what Russia has been losing. Russia has lost 270-500 tanks already. All of Russia’s tanks are vulnerable to Javelin missiles. There are 17000 Javelin missiles in the Ukrainian army now.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2022/03/when-will-russia-run-out-of-soldiers.html

#4 feeblemind on 2022-03-24 14:50 (Reply)

The biggest two problems with Russia's army is they don't have a large competent NCO force AND they have generals who got to be generals by politics and telling the political leaders what they wanted to hear.

The reason their enlisted and conscripted lower ranks are so poorly trained is directly because of those two factors. With good leadership and necessary support from their government a cadre of well trained NCO's working under well trained officers can turn raw recruits into good soldiers in 2-6 months.

#4.1 OneGuy on 2022-03-24 15:50 (Reply)

Too much is assumed and too much is conflated. Yes the leaders and elite in Ukraine are corrupt. Maybe not as corrupt as Pelosi and a few of her ilk but never the les they are corrupt. But they live in a place and culture where if you are not corrupt you cannot succeed. So I'm not sure they should be treated as badly as someone like Nancy Pelosi who lives in a place where corruption isn't necessary to succeed.

As for the Ukrainian people, they appear to me to be good people, trying to raise families and work and survive. It's not like many places in the world we could call corrupt where everyone is extorting everyone else or killing them or forming gangs. Ukraine is more or less like other European countries in that they are intelligent, educated to a point and hold Christian values. For that reason I am 100% on Ukraine's side in the war. I hope they can win to the extent that they retain some/most of their land and they can return to normal.

I don't think we or NATO should fight their war but I am OK with giving them some military arms and aid of course.

#5 OneGuy on 2022-03-24 15:44 (Reply)

“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;

Trying to use the excuse that they're "good people, trying to raise families and work and survive...and hold Christian values" doesn't hold up.

They allowed the (((oligarch))) corruption that is seen, they allowed the bio-weapons labs in their country. Where were their demonstrations? Where were their protests at the coup in 2014? What were they doing to protect the people of Donbas?

We all should learn a lesson there that there is no ignoring evil just to get along. Evil brings violence and disaster no matter what. Might as man up and stand against it.

#5.1 DrTorch (Link) on 2022-03-24 17:08 (Reply)

I'm not sure there is a bio-weapons lab in Ukraine. I do know that a few, very few, have made that claim with zero proof. Can you prove there is a bio-weapon lab in Ukraine?

"Where were their demonstrations? Where were their protests at the coup in 2014?"

Where are Americans in the jailing of J6 protestors making them into political prisoners? Did you "man up and stand against it"?

#6 OneGuy on 2022-03-24 20:21 (Reply)

Zero proof?

You can't avoid the story then act as if it doesn't exist b/c you never read about.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ukraine-biolabs-fox-tucker-carlson-tulsi-gabbard-b2039117.html

US government has admitted there are a number of such facilities in Ukraine funded by Washington that do research on deadly pathogens, albeit from a preventative perspective rather than to create a weapon.

#6.1 DrTorch (Link) on 2022-03-25 12:44 (Reply)

Yes and the irony is I was watching Tucker at the time I wrote my post. But what is done at the lab? Did they ever or do they now work on "making" bio-weapons? We don't know the answer. Tucker doesn't know the answer. I'm open minded on this, if it's true fine if it isn't then it isn't. But until I know the answer I'm not claiming it is fact.

#6.1.1 OneGuy on 2022-03-25 18:40 (Reply)

Ukraine certainly came on hard for HRC in 2016; interfered with a US election, but then it happens. I try to keep an open mind but the first killed in war is the truth. Unless they were photo shopped, I saw more than one hammer and sickle with the Donbass "separatists", then imagine Cuba and Venezuela. The hammer and sickle closes conversation with me.

#7 SF jeff on 2022-03-24 21:01 (Reply)

Tim in VT makes some good points in the Althouse blog, but uses Russian disinformation for at least one issue: UK use of phosphorous in Dombas.

See the attached critique: https://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-ukrainian-military-use-prohibited-weapons-in-donbas/

#8 jhs on 2022-03-25 07:36 (Reply)

The Ukrainian refugee I'm staying in touch with, who's now safely in Poland with her young daughter, had to leave her husband behind to fight. She mentioned that she lived half her life in the Soviet Union before she emigrated to Ukraine in her 20s. Back then, she thought it was normal to spend hours every day in line for food and soap.

She'd never claim her adopted country is free of corruption. She only hopes her country is not overrun and dismantled by the violent madman to the east, who bows to no one in the corruption department and, unlike her own government, would cheerfully see her dead if it meant he no longer had to live with the humiliation of knowing that a neighboring country prefers the West to his own empire.

I don't believe a people's right to independence hinges on their proving to our satisfaction that their government is at least nominally less corrupt than our own.

#9 Texan99 on 2022-03-25 08:57 (Reply)

I think we all agree that people deserve the chance to find independence. It's just that we also don't think it is in America's best interests to become deeply involved. We are wrecking our economy along with that of the rest of the world in order to send a message to Putin and his supporters, which will only serve to strengthen their resolve in my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong, but is it worth it to test my hypothesis?

#9.1 Steve on 2022-03-26 07:34 (Reply)

People on both sides accuse each other of falling for propaganda, which has been a tsunami of fabricated, contradictory claims and counter claims, exacerbated by the media's avid beating of the war drums. It is beyond me, how anyone can believe they have a monopoly on truth, beyond Putin being the unjustified aggressor.
Just an FYI on the BioLabs. Maybe this is an explanation. I have not read the WSJ article myself, but I've seen references to it on several websites. It mentions that they existed in 1991 and were Soviet relics, that the USA intended to dismantle. I don't know if they are among the labs being cited in recent weeks, but, if they are, it seems suspicious that it would take 31 years to identify, test, inventory and incinerate the products.
Another point to consider; there are biolabs and then there are biolabs. There are thousands of biolabs, around the world, even in very backward countries. They are critical to agriculture and exist to surveil domesticated animals for pathogens. It is inevitable that their function would overlap with research on human pathogens.

#10 Exasperated on 2022-03-25 10:04 (Reply)

Ukraine 2012. Peaceful, corrupt, but whole including Crimea and the Donbas and Luhansk Oblast. Then Russia decides to take Crimea and does so with little Green men. They they take Donbas and Luhansk. Fighting starts because Ukraine does not want to give up their sovereign territory. Russia denies helping Donbas but everyone knows they are there. A Dutch airliner with several hundred people including children is shot down over Donbas by a Russian anti aircraft missile. The Donbas soldiers will not allow investigators on the scene to recover the black box, so to cover up the war crime. Of course what the Russians are good at is psyops and propaganda, so they claim it was the Ukrainians who shot down the plane. War continues for the past 8 years with the Ukrainian losses of about 8,000 soldiers. Under the former Ukrainian puppet Prime Minister Yanokovich, the Ukrainian army in 2012 was a pitiful 6,000 men. Now it is a much better armed and trained 200,000 men, with anti-tank weapons and other Western arms. Putin believes his Army toadies who claim they will take Kiev in three days, install another puppet government, and the Ukrainian people will cheer because they all want to be a part of the
'mighty' Russian Federation. NOT. They want to be join the EU and along with every other Eastern European country want to join NATO, to be protected from Russian aggression. Beware Russian agitprop it is pervasive. Speak to Ukrainians about Russia, or Poles, or any other country that was formerly a part of the USSR. Russia continues to commit war crimes against Ukrainian people.

#11 ConservativeCA (Link) on 2022-03-31 13:18 (Reply)

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Thursday, March 24. 2022

There are no good guys in the Ukraine story