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Sunday, March 20. 2022

The Perils of Emotional Arguments for Intervention in Ukraine

 From the article:




Zelenskyy’s request was expected. Ukrainians and pro-Ukraine think tanks and activists have been relentless in their calls for a no-fly zone over the Ukrainian skies. One can sympathize with the Ukrainians. For some reason, they expected NATO cavalry to arrive over the gray hills. Ukrainians have also been misled for decades about their chances of joining NATO. Zelenskyy has been exemplary and brave in his stoic leadership, heralding a return to the Great Man Theory of history and drawing comparisons to Winston Churchill.


If there is one glaring similarity between Zelenskyy and Churchill, it is that Zelenskyy understands as much as Churchill that dragging the United States into a potential world war—even a nuclear war—is in the interest of his country. Whether it is in the interest of the United States is a different question altogether.



Posted by The News Junkie in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 11:37 | Comments (21) | Trackbacks (0)

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Not my monkey not my circus
#1 Jake on 2022-03-20 11:58 (Reply)
So you don't care that the Biden Administration's choices have made nuclear proliferation far far more likely, and thus making the world a **much** more dangerous place?
#1.1 William O. B'Livion on 2022-03-20 13:27 (Reply)
Why our we and the other atomic nations the only one's that get to control this beast?
Do you think killing a million people with knives is better?
What made us the moralist of the world?
If you think the bomb is the worst thing that can happen to the world then you dont understand child abuse, abortion, murder, rape, and all the evil that goes on every day, EVERYDAY.

Forget about it William, it's Ukraine
#1.1.1 jake on 2022-03-20 15:20 (Reply)
There is a LOT that the US Government can do to significantly hurt Russia that isn't an actual act of war, and helps the people in the US at least as much as it would help our "allies" in Europe and the people of Ukraine.

It comes down to one sentence:

Drive the cost of hydrocarbon fuels down.

There are three ways to do this:
* Congress passes a bill and whatever President we have signs it, putting the authoriztion for the XL pipeline into law*. Not subject the whim of the President.

Re-start issuing **PERMITS** for drilling and leases for exploration.

* Go "all in" on 4th generation nuclear fission power plants. MSR reactors, Helium Cooled Pebble Bed Reactors, So-called "Nuclear Batteries". Displace Coal and Natural gas in this country so it's cheaper for other countries until they can industrialize enough to move away from coal.
#1.2 William O. B'Livion on 2022-03-20 13:31 (Reply)
I agree that lower fuel costs will help.

could you explain why you think that current US (biden) policy is likely to lead to more nukes?
#1.2.1 anon on 2022-03-20 13:36 (Reply)
My own analysis is similar to William's statement. Ukraine would not have been invaded if they held on to the ex-Soviet nukes, and the only thing saving Russia right now from being a NATO shooting gallery like Iraq and Afghanistan were is their store of nukes. It was bad enough when Hillary trashed Libya after Quadaffi voluntarily gave up his nukes but this whole episode is a vivid illustration that being nuclear capable is the only sure fire way to ensure your territorial integrity from a nuclear capable adversary.
#1.2.1.1 Christopher B on 2022-03-20 14:26 (Reply)
I think it was Idi Amin of Uganda who once posited that if every country had nukes, wars would end. Hard to believe, but he was at least correct that having nukes is the best way to deter adversaries. Kenneth Waltz made a similar argument.
#1.2.1.1.1 RetiredSOF on 2022-03-20 15:38 (Reply)
Not to worry. This week our congress debated the much more pressing question of what to do about African/American hairstyles. Yeah--we're good.
#2 Apple Pie on 2022-03-20 12:05 (Reply)
“So far Zelensky has been brilliant as he expresses his appreciation for Western sanctions and arms. His insight seems to balance his otherwise unhinged demand for far more dangerous escalations—specifically to establish a no-fly zone and thus in World War III style confront, in the air above Ukraine, a bellicose Russia with the world’s largest nuclear arsenal.” - VDH

https://amgreatness.com/2022/03/13/volodymyr-zelenskyys-classical-choices/
#3 Erasmus on 2022-03-20 12:20 (Reply)
The Romanians have somewhat idolised, somewhat resented the Americans, who they were sure would rescue them early in the Cold War. Maybe we should have, but Americans get sick of war well before the 4-year mark, and we were not minded to confront Stalin in 1945. We "should have" brought in a lot of Jewish refugees in the 30s as well, but such "shoulds" are not a wise way to look at history. There is no use in saying it would be better if pigs could fly.
#4 Assistant Village Idiot on 2022-03-20 12:50 (Reply)
IMO our leadership tends to think with their hearts and not their heads.

In light of that I think there is still a chance NATO will do Zelensky's bidding.

Whether that would escalate into a nuclar exchange is anyone's guee.
#5 feeblemind on 2022-03-20 13:08 (Reply)
The current leadership thinks with its pocketbook. Try to bankrupt Russia and replace the Russian oligarchs with the American oligarchs and pillage the entire country. The BRICS have been wising up to the rapine corporatist elite. The US state dept and CIA have been neck deep in the Ukraine ever since they overthrew the legitimate Ukraine leadership in 2014. Their job is to make sure that the last living Ukrainian fights the Russians to the bitter end. All the players in this game are the same players that were in the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.
#5.1 indyjonesouthere on 2022-03-20 13:53 (Reply)
I have no idea what exactly is going on in Ukraine, but I know Zelensky is not Santa Claus, Superman, and Captain America rolled into one as he's being portrayed and looking at all the cheerleaders he's got right now I have a sneaking suspicion a guy with that many crooks and liars and morons on his side might not be the greatest guy to be on the side of. (And by this, naturally, I mean that Putin is the greatest hero of all time and I think he's perfect.)
#5.1.1 Jerryskids on 2022-03-20 16:24 (Reply)
Lara Logan Sets the Record Straight on Ukraine/Russia.

https://rumble.com/vxwvw5-lara-logan-sets-the-record-straight-on-ukrainerussia..html

4:30 video
#5.1.2 feeblemind on 2022-03-20 20:24 (Reply)
I'm really sick of some of the MAGA contingent's responses to the Ukraine situation and Zelensky's requests for NATO assistance up to and including a no-fly zone. Many of them are responding with personal vitriol that corrupt Ukraine and Zelensky are trying to pull us into war.

Yeah, he's the president of a country under attack, it is his JOB to advocate for whatever help can turn the tide. Maybe what he is asking for is not prudent, but it is a starting point in urgent negotiations. We do not have to comply, we need to consider what is in the US interests, but he would be nuts not to at least ask and see where things proceed from there.

They had no problem with Trump taking some hard nosed and occasionally off the wall positions in dealings with foreign leaders, because that was his way of doing his job looking out for the interests of the US. That's not Zelensky's job, he has to look out for a weakened and divided Ukraine that's under attack by a dangerous neighbor.

Sometimes I think their American First and MAGA poses are just poses, I tend to think these approaches are useful for pursuing our national interests. They are hypocrites if they think Zelensky in these circumstances is some evil ogre for doing the same thing on his country's behalf.
#6 Ed on 2022-03-20 16:16 (Reply)
ah geez--another one. Just one more shallow mind with a screaming case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. You have toned it down a little bit--but it still comes across loud and clear.
#6.1 another one on 2022-03-20 18:16 (Reply)
Poor reading skills, eh? I supported Trump and his agenda. It's some of his followers who have become deranged about the objective facts in Ukraine. Their distrust of the lying press and the failed establishment has them reacting and not thinking for themselves any longer.

Trump looked out for America's interests first and foremost, why do they fault Zelensky for looking out for Ukraine's interests when they were wrongfully invaded? It's what Trump would have done if he was in Zelensky's place.

Don't hold him responsible for how America responds, our country has the job to determine our own interests. Claiming Zelensky is part of some corrupt conspiracy like a lot of them do just makes them look like chumps for Russian propaganda.
#6.1.1 Ed on 2022-03-20 19:12 (Reply)
I don't find them worse than those who are beating the drums for us to send our troops there to fight. I am 100% behind the Ukrainians and 100% opposed to sending them anything but weapons and aid. Ukraine needs to fight this, they need more and better weapons but it is their fight not ours. Having said that I am aware that Putin has his eye on Eastern Europe and THEY need to prepare to fight as well. IMHO if we join the fight, which we may have to if a NATO country is attacked, then nuclear war is inevitable. Estimates are that if we have a nuclear war 1-2 billion people in the Northern hemisphere will die. THAT should be prevented.
#6.1.1.1 JustMe on 2022-03-20 19:27 (Reply)
I agree with Ed. Of course Zelenskyy should advocate for what his own country needs. It's up to us to decide what to do about it, not up to him to spare our feelings by not asking. Personally I support supplying him with defensive weapons but not on the no-fly zone.

Also, I think NATO has to get serious about what kind of support it will offer to a country that's in the beginning stages of application for membership. Otherwise it's too dangerous for the applicant even to start talking about joining.
#6.1.1.2 Texan99 on 2022-03-21 07:37 (Reply)
Only knowing Ukraine's history since it separated from russia, and that being cloaked in corruption and treachery, how could we possibly consider putting our people and treasury (and fate) in the hands of people who have sold out their own country? Ukraine misread the USA when it said disarm, trust us, and how much money will you take to betray your own people? I am sick at heart to see my beautiful dream country, usa, up on the auction block and our blood treasure de-valued and bartered on the world stage. Crushing shame and intense rage at the judases ruling my dying country.
#7 Judith on 2022-03-21 07:34 (Reply)
This is a fight Europe needs to take up. It's one of their own that's getting beat up. If they're worried that Putin won't stop with Ukraine the countries in danger of invasion should join Ukraine in fighting the Russians.
This is not our fight. There is zero chance that Russia will invade the US.
If there is to be a no fly zone over Ukraine it should be enforced with European planes flown by European pilots.
#8 SteveP (Link) on 2022-03-21 10:04 (Reply)

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