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Wednesday, December 22. 2021
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There is of course reason to be scared of covid. But I am more scared of our politicians using covid as a cover for taking away our constitutional rights.
OneGuy: There is of course reason to be scared of covid. But I am more scared of our politicians using covid as a cover for taking away our constitutional rights.
Well-thought statement. That is absolutely the crux of the controversy.
Quarantine is deeply rooted in common and statutory law, so it's not a new issue. In the U.S., the courts have determined that such laws must be reasonable and tailored to the government's interest in preserving public safety. That's why a lot of this has played out in the courts.
Many of the arguments against social measures are based on a black and white view of the issue; that the government never has the power to intervene during an epidemic. But that view would be contrary to centuries of common law, and would be untenable during an outbreak of a disease as deadly as smallpox.
What is reasonable under the circumstances? Are the orders sufficiently tailored to the necessity? What may be appropriate for a smallpox outbreak may not be appropriate for COVID or for seasonal influenza. Nearly a million people in the U.S. have died from COVID, so it's not an inconsequential problem.
Humans tend to be reactive, but the science shows that being proactive is a far superior strategy to mitigate the spread of infectious disease. And keep in mind that pathogens evolve, and the course of that evolution can be unpredictable.
As OneGuy points to, the big fear is the tyranny of the govt+mob.
The government requires a covid shot to work. The logic is that the financial dependency of the job is so strong it will force more people to get the shot and decrease the risk to everyone. It would not be a leap of logic to apply that same thing to people who receive any form of welfare. So why doesn't the government require a covid shot to collect welfare, food stamps, housing subsidy, etc.? After all the mandated shot is intended to be beneficial to the recipient and all Americans, right? So why not welfare recipients???
Anon: The government requires a covid shot to work. The logic is that the financial dependency of the job is so strong it will force more people to get the shot and decrease the risk to everyone. It would not be a leap of logic to apply that same thing to people who receive any form of welfare.
The statutory authority (if any) for COVID vaccination for jobs is through OSHA. What would the statutory authority be to tie vaccination to welfare?
If the tyranny can be pushed onto us under a government office intended to protect us what else can they make OSHA do? Could they use OSHA to put us in interment camps? Force abortions (for our health of course)? Force us to take medications to change our gender? If they can force us to take an untested experimental medication why couldn't they force us to do anything they wanted?
BoostedForever: If the tyranny can be pushed onto us under a government office intended to protect us what else can they make OSHA do?
The courts adjudicate those questions under the U.S. Constitution and the relevant law. It's not even clear that OSHA has the statutory authority to impose a mandate under their emergency rule-making powers as they have asserted.
But, even if the Court rules they do have such powers, that doesn't mean the Court would agree to other government actions. However, quarantine and compulsory vaccination have long been held to be valid powers when the threat is sufficient.
Consider this: The government can lock you up for years, cage you for life, even kill you. The check on this power in the common law is the Great Writ.
Well https://brandnewtube.com/watch/its-beginning-to-look-a-lot-like-genocide-everywhere-you-go_DwAkP9S6wcSZ21L.html that's interesting.
We stayed away from the last Urban Hike because the national mood is one of fear. The hype from the media gets everybody juiced up with fear so folks are twitchy. That’s dangerous.
I will note again what seems to be eluding folks at MF. There was also a reflexive "Omicron must not be anything because...well, because we don't want it to be and we're sick of this, and that's science."
I very much hope that the initial sense that this variant is much less deadly and may actually provide a more widespread immunity turns out to be the case. But we don't actually know that yet. We only have the knee-jerk reaction that "They want us to be scared so of course they are wrong because they are tyrants and there is really nothing to worry about."
It seems a rather elementary caution on my part that should not be that alarming, yet seems unendurable. As the medieval rabbis used to say "Perhaps the opposite is also true." A good rule of thumb.
"...because we don't want it to be and we're sick of this, and that's science."
So what is the science? Do the lockdowns, masks, social distancing and mandates prevent serious illness and deaths due to covid? Prove it! Most of us do not think that they work. A wave of covid or a variant rises in a city or state or country and runs it's course did the mask prevent a single case? Did the 6 feet distancing? Did shutting down the gyms but not the supermarkets? Probably not! Most likely if any of these things actually worked for someone as some as all these mandated measures are over they are then going to catch the covid that they avoided for two moths or so.
It's a simple question and one that for some reason "science" is not allowed to answer; do any or all of these measures work? How would we know? Prove that they work! Prove that going bankrupt, having our children miss two years of school, not being able to travel is worth it.
And EVEN IF YOU COULD PROVE that it saves 100 lives or 200 lives WHY NOT ONLY MANDATE THAT THE SUCEPTABLE PEOPLE MUST OBEY THESE STUPID MANDATES!!! Why destroy 100 million lives in the vain attempt to save just a few lives???
And if you argue that saving any lives is worth the sacrifice THEN address the fact that illegal immigrants kill 10,000 people in this country every year. Why no big effort to find them and deport them to save those 10,000 lives?
Do not mistake probability for truth, for it is a notorious liar. ~Robert Brault, rbrault.blogspot.com
There is a bizarre air of unreality that pervades the whole public discussion on Covid, perhaps best characterized by this simple question, "If masks really work, then why didn't they?" You'll look in vain for any indication that Covid cases dropped after mask mandates were implemented.
The same question can be raised with other Covid measures. If lockdowns really work, then why didn't they?
It's possible that both masks and lockdowns helped without completely eliminating the problem. I don't find the evidence terribly convincing, but it's not a logical absurdity on its face.
Same goes for the vaccines. They certainly aren't 100% effective, but it doesn't follow that they're 100% useless.
If it essential to get vaccinated and boosted to save others and yet the vaccinated and boosted still get covid and still spread covid what is the right answer to this conundrum? Well that is simple, because we know and even Fauci agrees that having had covid is far more effective in preventing getting covid again. So the only logical and scientific answer is we must all get covid. So that should be the new mandate. You remember the measles parties where you would bring your children to the home of a child with measles so they could get measles? Well you remember them if you are old enough. That's what we need now, forced exposure to covid and then all the survivors will have immunity and the pandemic ends.
VAXTARD: Someone who thinks a Covid "vaccine" actually works.
Pro-Trump regions, which have implemented weaker countermeasures against COVID, have seen generally higher death rates.