Toyota ain't buying it

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Saturday, August 7. 2021

Largest automaker in the world is not buying the Green Fad. Sure, they do make hybrids.

Posted by The News Junkie in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 17:42 | Comments (18) | Trackbacks (0)

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After 20 years of continuous improvement, Toyota hybrids almost make sense. At the upper trim levels, the premium for a hybrid is less than 5% over a gas only model. While you won't recover that in gas savings over the life of the vehicle, if you do a lot of stop and go driving the savings in wear and tear on brakes and drive train probably make it cost neutral.

#1 John Fisher on 2021-08-07 20:27 (Reply)

Well said. The point of a hybrid is capturing wasted energy (regenerative braking, etc.) and reusing it to move the car. The goal is trying to squeeze as much energy out of a gallon of gas as possible.

Transition to batteries, charged by terrestrial energy, to propel a car is an order of magnitude different. Energy to weight ratio for gas and diesel cannot be matched by batteries. Not yet, anyway.

#1.1 Bull on 2021-08-08 13:14 (Reply)

I've read the Toyota piece and they are not against the electric-car "fad." What they said is that America and other countries are not yet ready for the number of electric vehicles that some states and countries are already trying to mandate for specific years.

Specifically, we need to
add a lot more charging stations;
advance the technology so that you can recharge an electric car faster than the hour or so it now takes even at a filling station with the most recent charging equipment; (it takes much longer if done at home)
get a lot more public acceptance of the switch to electric vehicles;
and most of all, hugely expand the supply of power connected to the electric grid so it'll be able to power millions of cars. And most of it can't be solar or wind because those sources aren't available 24/7.

If Biden wants to pursue an infrastructure bill he might want to put that grid expansion in it.

#2 jdgalt1 on 2021-08-07 22:07 (Reply)

The lack of infrastructure planning does make ya wonder if the real point isn't outlawing personal vehicles, period.

#2.1 Christopher B on 2021-08-08 00:58 (Reply)

This! So you declare utopia (50% EVs in 10 years) and don't do the multiple Manhattan projects necessary to: 1. Provide all the needed materials. 2 Design robust EVs that support what we do today with ICE vehicles. 3. As noted, provide charging stations everywhere there are gas stations plus parking lots of additional ones due to the 6:1 increase in wait time to charge. 4. Provide the additional reliable electricity sources and distribution to at least double our current capacity. What you will get is the goal - personal ground transportation will be as rare as private jet usage. The rest of us can take the bus...

#2.1.1 John Fisher on 2021-08-08 10:53 (Reply)

Think about this. If you live in Denver and you want to go skiing in Vail that is a minimum 200 mile round trip. remember this is winter so the efficiency of your EV is less than nameplate--sound familiar. Can you find a charging station in Vail to charge to
the battery to insure you get home? Ever been stuck in traffic on I70 on the way home from the mountains? Who is going to forgo a day of skiing to wait in line for a charger? A hybrid lessens the risk of being stranded but a internal combustion h powered vehicle insures a return...provided you have a full tank. And hi buyguess what, there are in lots of gas stations along the route.

#3 rocdoctom on 2021-08-07 23:44 (Reply)

Auto fill sucks.

#4 rocdoctom on 2021-08-07 23:46 (Reply)

Nothing beats the portability or energy density of hydrocarbons. Not yet, anyway. But we're almost 100 years post-disaster of the Hindenburg, which has disproportionately terrified the thinking public all that time. Now that we're not teaching history anymore, perhaps it's time to re-invigorate the conversation on....... hydrogen.

#5 Aggie on 2021-08-08 09:12 (Reply)

The technology exists that would take what is largely the engine block we have today, replace the head with one capable of handling much higher compression and, burning a slightly higher blend of alcohol than is used today get much better mileage with greatly reduced emissions compared to the engines we have today. These would go a long way toward helping automakers meet CAFE standards which got re-acronymed as SAFE. It would take pumps capable of handling higher blends but compared to doubling the electric grid this is nothing. I know people that have tuned into Maggies for a long time get a steady dose of anti-ethanol propaganda. Most of the evils ethanol gets blamed for have to do with components of the engine that are made as cheaply as possible. So much is made of rubber and plastic that used to be some kind of metal. The myth that old engines can't run on ethanol blends is just nonsense, I have older engines that have been running on them fine for decades. The problem is newer stuff, especially small engines that are not made to last over a few years as opposed to older engines which were designed to run forever and will, if you take care of them.

#6 cornfarm on 2021-08-08 09:23 (Reply)

The basic problem with alcohol is that it takes more energy to produce it than the energy contained in alcohol.

It's a net loser for the nation's energy supply.

Physics, you know.

But it has made multi-millionaires out of the nation's corn farmers, so there is that.

#6.1 feeblemind on 2021-08-08 11:53 (Reply)

That's not necessarily an issue if you're concentrating / storing lower-quality energy sources.

#6.1.1 OldCurmudgeon on 2021-08-08 15:21 (Reply)

Except that business about ethanol taking more energy to produce it than it contains hasn't been true since the 1980's. Absolutely tons of evidence to support this fact. Surprising to me at times how little effort people make to educate themselves. Just take an old talking point and run with it.

#6.1.2 cornfarm on 2021-08-10 19:24 (Reply)

Toyota is being smart. Some day the rug is going to get pulled out from under their competitors, and the companies that went whole-hog into lithium car batter production (e.g. Panasonic), when the subsidies are finally killed off, as they inevitably will be. The writedowns on their then-obsolete investments will be epic.

Electric cars are a poor solution to a nonexistent problem. People don't want them (except to show off), there's no way that the energy density of the batteries will ever get close to that of hydrocarbons (physics, not engineering), and just wait a few years until people find out how expensive the batteries will be to replace, once their charge capacity falls off.

Facts are stubborn things. Stupidity broadcast loudly and repeatedly remains stupid. Facts win in the end.

#7 Hairless Joe on 2021-08-08 09:34 (Reply)

Electric cars are a poor solution to a nonexistent problem. People don't want them (except to show off), there's no way that the energy density of the batteries will ever get close to that of hydrocarbons (physics, not engineering)

Amen to that, Joe.

#7.1 feeblemind on 2021-08-08 11:42 (Reply)

We drive Toyotas. Nice reliable cars.

#8 Texan99 on 2021-08-08 11:49 (Reply)

I’ve owned Prius and later two Teslas
Like Prius a lot
But love love both Tesla’s. Almost no maintenance over five years. Charge for free. Free! Forlifetime of of car. Also can charge at home with solar panels, but usually at Tesla for 20-30 minutes. Home full charge is overnight if need.
If you go to Vail, take cord to charge from rental house if they don’t have chargers.
Best car I’ve owned.

#9 Ns on 2021-08-08 12:45 (Reply)

Happy to hear Tesla is reliable. But to be clear: you realize you're still burning hydrocarbons, correct? Just remotely. Or perhaps you're using nuclear, or hydropower, but you are not using "clean" energy. Even your solar panels are the products of mining and will someday constitute a hazardous waste.

#9.1 Cathy J on 2021-08-08 18:38 (Reply)

Don't kid yourself, Ns. The charging is not "free". It is just being paid for by somebody else, who did not agree to do so.

Still feel clever now?

#9.2 Hairless Joe on 2021-08-09 09:32 (Reply)

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Saturday, August 7. 2021

Toyota ain't buying it