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Sunday, November 19. 2017
I oppose any corporate taxes. They make no sense. We already have income taxes and dividend taxes and capital gains taxes, etc. High business taxes just drive business away. That's the opposite of a rational goal, which is to nurture business and thus job growth. This chart via NR
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As long as the twisted notion that corporations are persons prevails, make 'em pay taxes - good and hard. When we decide corporations are not persons, but are gaggles of controlling individuals, quit taxing them, and hold the gaggles responsible jointly and severally for what the corporations do or don't do.
It's not accurate to say only corporations collect rather than pay taxes. Taxes are an expense to ANY business, including sole proprietorship, and are reflected in the prices of the goods and services the business sells. They do not occur in an economic vacuum.
There is nothing 'twisted' about the notion of corporate personhood. It is a legal construct fundamental to the advantage of the corporate form of operation. The same structure could be obtained in other ways. Limited liability partnerships are similar, and not an uncommon way to organize a business, but they have distinct disadvantages in terms of flexibility of ownership.
Corporations do not pay taxes. They simply collect the taxes for the government by passing them on to consumers as higher prices. All business taxes are really consumer taxes.
I just don't understand why they can't get them to zero. It is so easy to explain that ANY tax on a corporation just gets past on to the consumers. The corporate tax code is levered by lobbyists to give preferential tax treatment to certain business groups or companies.. and they are then able to better withstand competition by newcomers.
Congress is completely bought off by these interests and are happy to play the game since they get money. Maybe someday it will end, but not anytime soon. I guess we'll settle for 20%.
"It is not the employer who pays wages – he only handles the money. It is the product that pays wages."
- Henry Ford
By extension, the revenue from the product pays for all the overhead which includes the taxes and the cost of compliance with regulations.
About which topic rightists are as enthusiastically unconservative as the most ardent progressive. Judas Maude you people are dim.
The problem is as simple as this: If we cut corporate/business taxes to 0% with any kind of assurance that our government believed it should stay that way, the economy would boom, everyone could have a job, Tax revenues would go up, goods and services would be more affordable and businesses would move here or move back here from overseas. The Democrats and their minoins don't want this. So it will never happen.
A big part of the reason it will never happen is this stupid idea that corporate taxes should be used to punish corporation and the rich. The Democrats use this insane prejudice very cleverly against all of us including the insanely prejudiced who believe it punishes the rich. So therefore your jobs and dollars will continue to move offshore.
If we had an honest MSM they would discuss these issues in a fair manner and there wouldn't be so many useful idiots who are deluded into thinking these taxes somehow punish the rich. It might help too if economics was taught in schools.
If you want manufacturing in the US then don't tax domestic production. Tax imports when you find the corporatists avoiding paying domestic wages and tax imported labor. Trump is offering the option of free trade or fair trade. Free trade sucks for the low wage earner when you import more cheap labor and more cheap goods with few limits.
And on and on goes the dim brigade (as egotistically as it is ignorant in Windy's case).
Is it conservative - or intelligent - to cheerlead issues in which the facts and figures prove you so wildly wrong? Or is that really just a trendy assumption made by you patriotic corporatists who lost the tune back when a Clinton was in office?
Make the case instead of just being insulting, please.
I'll spend a half hour assembling the pertinent facts (and statistics) for this room of partisans if you'll agree not to be as reactionary about those simple facts as the original poster was in asserting the hogwash that set everybody's nodding partisanship off like it did. Because that was reactionary in more than a few ways.
See, we can argue or conservatives can actually be conservative, starting with doing the work of figuring this all out yourselves. (Or you can pull a Windy and magically make personal wage tax the same as a US passport).
Except where money is concerned, being informed and reasoned is what rightists fancy most about themselves. There they know even less than the Democrats they've been shrieking at all these decades, calling it conservatism.
Deal? If y'all's minds are as made up as usual I'm not going to bother arguing with concrete.
I have amply demonstrated my willingness to change my mind under superior argument over the past few years. Which just maybe you might have known had you done some research of your own.
Spending that time should not be necessary. The rough outline of the mechanism should be enough. You can go more deeply later if we need to. Or a link to a preferred economist who makes the argument well would also work.
So ultimately corporate taxes are consumption taxes collected by businesses to spare government the trouble of doing so
Even if I hadn't the proper conservative view of the problem that'd still be bait, transparently. But I do. And since I'll never reason you out of a view you weren't reasoned into, you'd need to sell me on why anyone should try.
So what. Point made the same way it always is: Rightists are too busy shrieking after a Clinton or rigidly painting Democrats as the universal moral evil or windmills as the ultimate cultural folly or whatever instinctive, ignorant social affection they're all on about 24/7 to reconsider their proud 100 year tradition of losing a nation because of sloth. Losing elections but more importantly, losing conservatism. Losing real, actual, structural, definable conservatism.
Hell, the average lowly alt-righter knows more real, authentic, structural American conservatism and none of them even identify it as such! They've happened on the principles you abandoned lying in the street and actually adopted what you can't even name anymore. Some of them probably even know this while none of you have figured it out yet. If you had you'd not keep doing it.
It's because y'all are statists of a incrementally different hue and partisans of what you only somehow think is a completely different primary color. Funny if it wasn't so tragic.
You're why I'm meh.
If you weren't so dead-ended you'd know yourselves why this is a notable issue and then how reactionarily wrong you've been about it. So tTell me who's going to do for you what for decades you've yet to do for yourselves.
I have no idea what Meh is saying other than "drop dead".
As for corporate taxes, they ought to be 0% with some safeguard to tax money leaving the country. Investing in the USA is a privilege, not a right, and ought to be paid for.
Economists have studied "Tax Incidence" for a long time and can tell you pretty clearly who pays for a corporate tax in most enterprises - it's always some combination of consumers, owners and suppliers, and employees are suppliers.
More importantly it is always an individual, because the tax gets passed back, business to business to business until it hits an employee, a housewife or the beneficiary of a pension plan.
The latter point is also important. Perhaps 75% of American public shares are "Institutionally Owned" which usually means a pension fund. That's right kiddies, most of the "owners" share of corporate tax is paid by pensioners.
Thanks for admitting ignorance. In some tragic way I suppose it's affirming, not least because it shows how the right gave everything it thought it valued away.
The rest of your piece is customary for the right: Blind fealty to a Corporatism the right is as schizophrenic about as it is utterly illogical about. Your assumptions are downright contradictory and wrong on points, not least of which is the excessively narrow legalese and zero-summing rightists invariably pepper their appeals to incredibly rudimentary, terminally-foreshortened logic with. Example? Look at BD's. Don't even bother with the details; the universe of facts. Just zoom in on that zero-summed bottom line.
Rightists are hardcore statists. They're wage and debt slaves which they defend as "capitalism". They're unquestioning. They're serfs in a kingdom they spend all their political time hollering about, completely blind to what it is, how it works, and their place building it, brick by brick. Blindfolded, they beat fists on one cornerstone of the thing endlessly.
What was that old adage about chains and lying lightly? Rightists forge those links.
I missed your reasoned explanation. I'm sure it must be in there somewhere.
I will not be checking back again.
Do you really not know that people here just quit reading your stuff, because the ratio of vitriol to argument is too high?
I'm just going to have to learn to live with the full weight of that crushing rejection Tex.
You'll be further pleased to know that it's proportional to the local vigor of "conservative" goodness and virtue in all things "small government" and "personal rights".