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Thursday, September 14. 2017Review Of Ken Burn's Vietnam PBS Series
The following is the first factual, shall I say fact-checking, review that I've come across about the Ken Burns narrative of the Vietnam war(s). Other reviews are more of the same breast-beating and ignorant narrative that has dominated in the liberal press for the past several decades. This review circulated among various Vietnamese and Americans with an interest in a more realistic contemporary view, rather than retrospective self-justifications for weakness of will and understanding that condemned millions to death and torture. COMMENTS ON THE VIETNAM WAR DOCUMENTARY FILM Dr. Nguyen Ngoc Sang I was fortunate to be part of a joint PBS and local library panel to preview the Vietnam War Documentary by filmmakers Ken Burns and Lynn Novick who had spent ten years to complete the eighteen-episode series, which the PBS will air on September 17, 2017. Although being anxious before an audience of more than 200 participants (mostly American-born except for my young assistant, Dr. Gwen Huynh) I decide to continue with the discussion thinking it is an opportunity to express a Republic of Vietnam Armed Forces soldier’s view about the war inspire of my limited language skill. After the presentation, each of the panelists was asked one question. The Film features a North Vietnamese veteran named Bao Ninh who says that there was no winner during the Vietnam War. The moderator asked me to comment on the interviewee’s statement. To me, in order to determine who won and who lost the war, one needs to answer three fundamental questions: (1) what was the goals of the involved parties. (2) What price did they have to pay? (3) The overall assessment of the war. A- Goals of Involved Parties 1. According to the Pentagon Papers (Pentagon Papers is a nearly 4,000-page top-secret Pentagon study of US government decision-making in relation to the Vietnam War from 1945 to 1967. An American activist and former United States military analyst, Mr. Daniel Ellsberg, released it through the New York Times in 1971. The document was declassified on May 5, 2011, and has been on display at the Library of President Nixon in California. ), the US got involved in the Vietnam War was to encompass the Communist China, not to help defend South Viet Nam's independence, which was the ruse for the US containment strategy at the time. 2. The North Vietnam’s goal was to "liberate" South Viet Nam by force and to use it as a springboard to spread International Communism throughout Southeast Asia, which was also Ho Chi Minh’s goal since 1932 when he was the leader of the Indochinese Communist Party. Le Duan, Secretary General of the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV), who was believed to have said, "We fight the Americans for the USSR and China", must have followed this goal to the letter. If so, the statement represented the true mission of the Communist leaders. 3. On the contrary, the goal of the South Vietnamese leaders was to defend the country’s independence and sovereignty. Since the North Vietnamese Communists enjoyed maximum supports from the USSR, China, the Eastern European Communist Block, and even Cuba, South Viet Nam had no other choice but accepted assistances from the United States and other capitalist countries to fight against the Communist invasion. B. Casualties 1. US casualties included 58,307 KIAs, 1948 MIAs, 303,604 WIAs, and $168 billion spent ($1,020 billion according to some other estimate) for the war. At the peak of the war, the number of the US forces in Vietnam reached 543,000. The other sad thing about the outcome of the war was that the very people who had welcomed the US soldiers who had taken part in other foreign wars would turn around and showed their disdains for the ones returning from Vietnam. Lately, efforts have been made to rectify the wrongs of the past, but the wounds that the Vietnam vets have endured are never going to completely heal. 2. The NVA casualties included 950,765 killed in action, nearly 600,000 wounded, and an estimated 300,000 missing in action. During the war, North Vietnam was one of the five poorest countries in the world. The war also killed two million civilians in North and South Vietnams. 3. The Republic of Vietnam’s casualties included 275,000 soldiers killed in action and about 1,170,000 wounded. The number of missing persons could not be tallied because the RVN had surrendered on April 30, 1975. C. WINNER AND LOSERS 1. From these observations, I concluded that the United States was the winner because she had achieved the strategic goal of containing Communist China, even by bargaining away the lives of others, including her own servicemen and women. 2. From the same observations, I told the audience that North Vietnam was definitely the loser. After having spent a tremendous amount of human resources including the death of nearly one million soldiers, two million civilians, and almost six-hundred thousand soldiers wounded in action and three-hundred thousand missing North Vietnam ended up dragging the whole country down the poverty pit after the war had ended. Moreover, they lost because their attempt to help China subvert the whole Southeast Asia had failed. 3. The Republic of Vietnam was the loser because it had surrendered unconditionally on April 30, 1975. According to an interview with General Frederick C. Weyand on June 12, 2006, however, the war had been lost not because of the incompetence of the ARVN, but because of the political leaders in Washington D.C. In other words, the RVN had won the battles but lost the war because of the Allies’ betrayal. 4. In conclusion, I told the audience that both North and South Vietnamese people were the losers. The Vietnam War was actually a Communist proxy war initiated by Ho Chi Minh, an internationalist, who had played the role of an enforcer of the Communist ambition of world domination. The war caused unspeakable suffering to the Vietnamese People and deep wounds to the country that have not healed 42 years after the war had ended. To a participant’s question about the current psychological consequences of the war, I simply answered, "Forty-two years after the war has ended the winning side still considers the conquered their enemy." Despite the purported time spent on researching and collecting materials, the film still comes across as a worn-out Communist propaganda. It still shows the picture of Major General Nguyen Ngoc Loan shooting the Viet Cong (VC) Bay Lop on the street of Saigon, the incident in which Lieutenant William Key ordered the massacre of 128 civilians, and the villagers burnt by Napalm bombs. My question is why didn’t the filmmakers show the scene of the VC shelling on March 9, 1974, that had killed 200 pupils of Cai Lay Elementary School and the massacre of almost six thousand innocent people of Hue during the VC ‘Tet’ Offensive in 1968? To the film’s claim that Napalm bombs produced by Dow Chemical Company were used to kill innocent villagers, my answer is that that was the unfortunate but unavoidable casualties of the war, any war. The Kim Phuc incident is not unlike the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Kosovo in 1999 or the "friendly fire" that killed the US and Allied forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria etc. In other words, mistakes in wars, though regrettable, are inescapable. The US mainstream media has chosen to ignore that fact and shamelessly piled on one lie after another. No wonder President Trump disdains them so much. After the seminar, historian Bill Laurie talked with me about the fact that Bay Lop had been a terrorist who had killed six relatives of General Loan’s subordinate just before the "execution" incident. To him, General Loan action did not violate the Geneva Convention. It would have been possible for the US to withdraw her troops from the Vietnam Theater before 1969 if the then Commander in chief of the US forces, General Westmoreland, had not applied the "search and destroy" tactics. Military commentators criticized General Westmoreland ("the General Who Lost Vietnam by the media) for his use of massive forces, tactics that are only effective when the enemy accepts the confrontation, to fight an elusive enemy who avoided large operations by moving deeper into the jungles or across the borders of Laos and Cambodia. Had skillful commanders such as General Harold K. Johnson and General Frederick C. Weyand been in charge, perhaps the American troops could have been repatriated sooner without more casualties and the US would still have succeeded in the attempt to contain Red China. If that had happened, the casualties that both Vietnams suffered would have been less and the hatreds would not have lasted as long. Military aid for South Vietnam also reflects the US "washing off the hand" policy. The aid package that had been at $2.8 billion in 1973 was wound down to $1 billion in 1974 and $300 million in 1975, a time when SVN more than ever needed all the helps it could get to fight against the NVA invasion. The story did not end there. In December 1974, the US Congress decided to cut off all aids and the Republic of Vietnam, without means to continue the fight, succumbed to the enemy on April 30, 1975. Except for the Communist "Liberation Army" myth bragging about its soldiers "catching" the US airplanes with bare hands, no army in the world that I know of could win a war without necessary weapons and resupplies. No one can change the history. Those who waged wars on behalf of the international Communists must accept their responsibility for the destruction of the country. History will judge their actions and our descendants will know the truth despite the Communists’ efforts to skew the historical facts. In order to fight against China’s aggression, the Vietnamese Communists must harness the national strength by reconciling with the people as a whole, and their victims, in particular. Otherwise, they will be a party to the demise of the country. In conclusion, this is a one-sided, half-truth documentary unworthy of watching. My observation had been posted on Yahoo but was removed 15 minutes later. Let us hope that Mr. Burns and Ms. Novick would have a change of heart and be more factual in their next project about the Vietnam War.
For those interested, an earlier post of mine was Vietnam War: A Guide To The Perplexed. Comments
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Every Congress person who voted to end military aid to the South Vietnamese in 1974 should have been put against the wall and executed. The South Vietnamese could have prevailed against the North with continued aid to their military.
indyjonesouthere: The South Vietnamese could have prevailed against the North with continued aid to their military.
Actually, as the Nixon tapes reveal, Nixon and Kissinger had determined that the South could not survive, but continued to war for political purposes. QUOTE: Nixon: because I look at the tide of history out there, South Vietnam probably can never even survive anyway… Nixon: It’s terribly important this year, but can we have a viable foreign policy if a year from now or two years from now, North Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam? That’s the real question. Kissinger: If a year or two years from now North Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam, we can have a viable foreign policy if it looks as if it’s the result of South Vietnamese incompetence. If we now sell out in such a way that, say, within a three- to four-month period, we have pushed {unclear} Thieu over the brink– we ourselves– I think, there is going to be– even the Chinese won’t like that. I mean, they’ll pay verbal– verbally, they’ll like it– Nixon: But it’ll worry them. Kissinger: But it will worry everybody. And domestically in the long run it won’t help us all that much because our opponents will say we should’ve done it three years ago. Nixon: I know. The problem was one of corruption. Every other bullet the Americans sent to Vietnam went to the communists. More bullets meant more killing, but brought the war no closer to a successful conclusion. Neither Nixon nor Kissinger were ever recognized as military strategist. As Nixon created the EPA one can surely recognize he had no concept of long term consequences of the administrative state. Kissinger is a globalist in the Hillary Clinton model, not what one desires if you prefer state solutions rather than the solutions you see under EU commission authority. The final NVA defeat of the south was primarily a defeat by about four NVA armour divisions against about one South Vietnamese Army division that decimated two of the NVA divisions before two more NVA divisions overwhelmed the South. That was with virtually no air power as very little was operational one Congress cut off funding. Read accounts by the NVA commanders about the battle...it will be an eye opener for you and most of academia.
indyjonesouthere: Neither Nixon nor Kissinger were ever recognized as military strategist.
They were responsible with deciding to continue the war so as to deflect blame for what they saw as impending failure. You continue to be irrational. Nixon ran on a platform of ending the war and he did get the North to the Paris conference and at one point got them there by bombing the crap out of them at which time they became defenseless as a result of running out of missiles. The North only broke the accords by attacking the south after Nixon resigned. Do try to get informed, it is an embarrassment to listen to your gibberish neo-history.
#1.1.1.1.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2017-09-16 14:00
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: You continue to be irrational.
Actually, we quoted Nixon directly.
#1.1.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-16 14:20
(Reply)
You can quote Nixon forever. He didn't get it right and neither did Johnson or Kennedy. If Ford would have had a pair he would have bombed the hell out of the North once they broke the agreement and attacked the South.
#1.1.1.1.1.1.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2017-09-16 18:12
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: You can quote Nixon forever. He didn't get it right and neither did Johnson or Kennedy.
Your claim was one of irrationality. Quoting the candid comments of the U.S. President and his National Security Advisor is not irrational. As for whether you were right, South Vietnam did fall, so you are the one arguing a counterfactual. Continued American involvement could have held the South almost indefinitely, at a high cost in blood and treasure. However, continued deceptions by the U.S. government eroded public support. The regime in South Vietnam did not have significant political support outside the capital, so probably could not have survived on its own.
#1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-17 09:32
(Reply)
Nixon's and Kissinger's cynicism about a situation they inherited and was already politically poison is not especially relevant to this particular discussion. Your reflexive desire to criticize opponents while ignoring Kennedy, Johnson, their cabinets, and the Democratic Congress is predictable.
I don't know what you are referring to about the bullets. Assuming we did not send ammunition directly to the VC, you are claiming that half our ammo was diverted to them somehow? That seems unlikely. The bullet bit is not rational. Most US forces used 5.56 ammunition while most NVA and VC used AK ammunition. Even on the best day they are not interchangeable. That comment likely resulted from an academic with no personal knowledge of the war that couldn't resist Fondaizing the real world.
indyjonesouthere: The bullet bit is not rational.
Gee whiz. It's an analogy. The problem was that a large portion of the people in the South Vietnamese government were either corrupt or working for the enemy. And few had any real loyalty to the regime there. The U.S. could only maintain the South by continuing to fight there. The last best chance for a negotiated settlement was Johnson's attempt in 1968, which was undercut by Nixon's interference.
#1.1.2.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-16 10:14
(Reply)
The last best chance for a negotiated settlement was Johnson's attempt in 1968, which was undercut by Nixon's interference.
One might also speculate it was the last best chance for Humphrey to get elected.
#1.1.2.1.1.1
drowningpuppies
on
2017-09-16 14:02
(Reply)
Assistant Village Idiot: Your reflexive desire to criticize opponents while ignoring Kennedy, Johnson, their cabinets, and the Democratic Congress is predictable.
Not at all. There was plenty of blame to go around. However, the question was whether the South Vietnamese could have prevailed. Nixon and Kissinger thought not, and they were certainly in a position to properly evaluate the situation. Their primary concern was avoiding the blame for what they saw as the South's likely collapse. For your reading pleasure.... freenorthcarolina.blogspot.com/search?q=Le+Minh+Dao+at+the+battle+of+Xuyen+Loc They fought to the bitter end while Congress sat on it's lazy duff just as they do to this day. Congress has become taxpayer trough hookers and little more.
Sir, all wars are "political," and to make this observation is a virtual tautology. I'm a historian, and although SEA is not my specialty, I have read deeply on VN war. Among the best accounts of the Kennedy-Johnson era is McMaster's Dereliction of Duty, where a persuasive case is made that Johnson's early fraud was motivated by his fears that he might be accused of "losing" VN (and thus providing Republicans a potent weapon for the still distant '68 election) and more prominently, his refusal to allow open discussion because of his simultaneous push for Great Society programs.
If that ain't politics, I don't know what is. Miller: Johnson's early fraud was motivated by his fears that he might be accused of "losing" VN (and thus providing Republicans a potent weapon for the still distant '68 election) and more prominently, his refusal to allow open discussion because of his simultaneous push for Great Society programs.
That is probably correct. Johnson coopted a primary issue on the political right, which was the fear of communist expansion, though the Gulf of Tonkin speech was before the 1964 election. You forget that Nixon ran on a platform of getting out of Vietnam, and he took steps to do so in as reasonable a fashion as possible.
The "party of peace" put us in Vietnam, but didn't make it clear that it was a winnable war, or put effort behind it. While it may have been a justifiable cause at the start, by 1974 it was just a disaster. In many ways, but on a much smaller scale, we've moved in that direction with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was once called the Soviet Union's Vietnam. If we don't take some kind of action there soon, it may become another one for us. The war was a stupid mistake by an incompetent and inexperienced president whose father bought him the presidency. JFK should have stuck to porking loose women and saved millions of lives in Vietnam. Instead he brought our country a terrible defeat and disgrace while killing and maiming tens of thousands of young men. For this he should have been shot. I might add that his brother Ted Kennedy lived to cause the U.S even more damage. Too bad he wasn't in that same car with JFK in Dallas. Perhaps whoever shot JFK could have taken Ted out too.
At the Univ of Texas in the early '70s, I was able to ask Walt Rostow (one of LBJ's national security advisors) why the US Gov't denied VC/NVA presence in Cambodia when it was very obvious that they were using it as sanctuary. He said it was because the US didn't want to embarrass Norodom Sihanouk.
There are more stones to be kicked over regarding Vietnam than Ken Burns and PBS will ever imagine. And yes, Congress lost the war for the Republic of Vietnam. Dr. Nguyen Ngoc Sang's commentary was illuminating. Ken Burns and Company spewing the Leftist, anti-American, PBS sanctioned version of the Vietnam War?
Not a word about the Hue massacre? What a surprise. He should have quit after "The Civil War". He's been riding the success of that pony for twenty five years. Dr. Sang is 100% correct. Kind've my take.
Burns is usually pretty good. But this is a bigger topic than he can reasonably handle in the current political climate. So he'll hew the party line, make his outlandish claims, use his position to state the case for keeping PBS (which should lose its funding), and everyone will call him a genius. I'm still going to watch it, because I can't ignore this, it's too big a part of my past (my favorite uncle was John Paul Vann's helicopter pilot) to just forget. Actually, Burns' leftist moralizing and regular virtue-signaling has made most of his documentaries since"The Civil War" pedantic, boring and quite maudlin in their overall approach.
This was even started during the Civil War epic. If I wanted to be depressed, I'd watch Burns, with its slow, moody music and its far too serious (except for Shelby Foote) commentaries. Every episode a "downer." And I'm a Civil War buff! (anyone who owns five books on the FIRST day of the battle of Gettysburg alone...;) Taste is not something I'll judge anyone on.
I enjoyed his Civil War documentary, also his docs on Jazz and baseball. Having studied documentary filmmaking in college, I'm well aware of the hazards of trying to tell a story properly and completely. After all, "Nanook of the North" was a documentary, but later determined to be almost entirely fabricated. I think Burns does a more than passable job in telling a story. But I realize he's infected with the journalistic problems of today - he bends over for anyone to get a pat on the back for being a good leftist. Although he considers leftist thought to be "moderate". Bulldog, I was at one time quite fond of Burns epic on Baseball, until I started doing some research of my own, and then was given an amazing gift of reading "A Terrible Beauty."
I found that Burns fell into a trap of not really doing a decent effort at researching what he covered to the point of making it less than truthful. And to think that I paid him for that.
#3.1.1.1.1
Ken
on
2017-09-15 16:59
(Reply)
You paid? I mean we all paid. Even if you didn't watch it....it was taxpayer funded.
As for his research, I am a long time fan of baseball. There are many myths and many contested issues in it - Ty Cobb in particular. Shoeless Joe is another. I think Burns handled both quite well, even if it didn't match how I felt about any of the contested topics. I'm still not sure where I fall on Ty Cobb. I still haven't really read anything that clarifies what he was really like. He seems to have potentially been 2 different people, depending on how and when you met him.
#3.1.1.1.1.1
Bulldog
on
2017-09-16 08:59
(Reply)
John Paul Vann--I am impressed !
For those of you who don't know who this man was here is his wikipedia link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Paul_Vann Not many people have heard of Vann. Mostly hardcore Vietnam nuts have, but few others.
My uncle died with Vann. In "A Bright Shining Lie" Sheehan intimated that he was an untried pilot without much experience and kind've laid the blame on him. Nothing was further from the truth. My aunt met with the author prior to printing, but refused calls from him after reading what he'd written. She has more information than he did about my uncle's capabilities. Personally I still think it was sabotage of some sort. Vann was not well liked. Scullman: Not a word about the Hue massacre?
That is incorrect. The documentary does cover the Hue massacre. Interviewer: Were your Vietnamese participants concerned about how they would be portrayed?
Ken Burns: Of course—in the exact same fashion as the Americans. But after a few questions, they realized what we were about. You see them beginning to cop to stuff; the massacre of civilians after {the Tet Offensive battle of} Hue has never been acknowledged by the Vietnamese government, and we’ve got two of their soldiers describing it as an atrocity. Working on his new film was “a daily humiliation.” Burns should be humiliated when he spouts crap like:
"there was a disproportionate number of African Americans serving in combat roles and therefore being wounded and killed." That simply wasn't true. Shows Burns either disregards verifiable facts or he intentionally perpetuates another leftist myth. That simply wasn't true.
Absolutely. ================== intentionally perpetuates another leftist myth. Indeed. BrockTownsend: Indeed.
Disproportion of African American casualties: "Blacks suffered disproportionately high casualty rates at the beginning of the Vietnam War but were 12.5% of casualties for the entire conflict, in line with proportion of population. In 1965 alone they comprised almost one out of every four combat deaths." This is in line with Burns' statement "But as the civil rights movement reached a fever pitch, there was a disproportionate number of African Americans serving in combat roles and therefore being wounded and killed. "
#3.3.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-17 14:23
(Reply)
This is in line with Burns' statement
Nonsense and you know it.
#3.3.1.1.1.1
drowningpuppies
on
2017-09-17 16:19
(Reply)
Based on a recommendation here I read "A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam" by Lewis Sorley.
Excellent history of how Abrams turned the war around and had the thing won by '70-71. Our feckless Congress packed with useful idiots decided to abandon our allies - that's why we lost. In a decade, the Democrats had gone from Cold War Warriors to Communist sympathizers and purposely scuttled the victory in the war they started. The Democrat Party became Communist sympathizers far earlier than the 1960's!!!
Try the early Thirties when FDR's Admin. recognized the Leninist regime as legitimate rulers of the USSR. This continued right through WWII, when "Lend-Lease" program continued support of the Marxist-Leninist regime. While ostensibly for Britain's aid, in reality, FDR's LendLease program directed far more to aid the Soviets, even to the point of shorting American troops of critical war-fighting supplies! Dems have always been "closet Reds". I just have to say, thank you for stating this. FDR and his fellow sycophants even delayed our drive to Berlin, thus allowing the fillithy communists to occupy all the territory that would become the soviet block after WWII. Needlessly dividing Germany. Effectively signing death warrants to millions caught on the wrong side of Berlin Wall.
In the European theatre, World War 2 was fought between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. That was the death struggle. By the time of the Normandy landings, Germany was beaten. For every member of the Wehrmacht facing Eisenhower's forces, three were engaged on the Eastern front. Eisenhower recognised that, given the events from June 1941 to early 1945, Berlin was rightfully the Soviets' prize and in acting accordingly he saved countless Allied lives.
I know American history teaches that the United States won WW2, with a little help along the way from Russia and England, but it just ain't so. And why should there have been, in 1945, any sympathy for Germany? The best solution to the question of future administration of the country would have been to split it into the multitude of principalities and dukedoms it had been before Bismarck came along. The world would be a better place without Germany dominating Europe. The Soviets did not win the war singlehanded. America and Britain supplied literal mountains of material to the Soviets, including deuce and a half trucks, boots, radios and jeeps. At the same time the US was fighting the Germans in the Mediterranean, on the Atlantic and the Army Air corps and RAF were crippling German communications and war production, especially of fuel. Much of that that Soviet artillery was towed by Studebaker trucks. If you want to understand how massive the scope of US support was, research the history of the Persian Corridor. The US was truly the greatest arsenal every seen in world history.
#4.1.1.1.1
Amor de Cosmos
on
2017-09-15 21:01
(Reply)
I did not say the Soviet Union defeated Nazi Germany single-handedly. But that was overwhelmingly the main theatre of the war. Everything on the western front was dwarfed by what took place on the eastern front. F'rinstance, Americans go on ad infinitum about the Battle of the Bulge. That lasted, what, five weeks, and was a foregone conclusion, a last desperate throw of the dice by a beaten regime. Stalingrad, by comparison, lasted six months, could have gone either way, and to a large degree determined the outcome of the war. And it was just one of many engagements.
How many tanks were involved at Kursk? Three thousand on the German side, five thousand on the Soviet side, maybe more. If Germany had defeated the Soviet Union in 1941/42, it would have been able to turn back to the west and finish off its conquest of the rest of Europe. What chance would there have been of a Normandy landing if Nazi Germany was no longer fully engaged in the east? A snowball's chance in hell, is the best guess.
#4.1.1.1.1.1
Graphite
on
2017-09-16 04:54
(Reply)
FDR and Eisenhower ceded Eastern Europe to the soviets. FDR was a fool and a early sympathizer of communism. Eisenhower worked for FDR and choose to do his bidding. But make no mistake if it had been General Patton in Eisenhower's position this would have ended differently and life for a few hundred Eastern Europeans would have been a lot better.
#4.1.1.1.2
GoneWithTheWind
on
2017-09-15 22:00
(Reply)
A few hundred million Eastern Europeans.
#4.1.1.1.2.1
GoneWithTheWind
on
2017-09-15 22:02
(Reply)
If Patton had provoked conflict with the Soviet Union post Germany's collapse in 1945, US forces in Europe would have received the mother of all hidings. The Allies had struggled from the beaches of Normandy, through France and the low countries to the western region of Germany. They had fought a German army a quarter of the size the one the Soviets had taken on and, unlike the Soviets, were advancing through areas where they were treated more as liberators than invaders. German town after German town capitulated immediately the Allies showed up and were happy to do so. The Soviets, on the other hand, were battle hardened and ruthless, having had to fight fanatical defenders for every inch of territory gained.
With that background, had the Soviets and the Yanks clashed, the smart money would have been on the guys with the better record against tough opposition. The upshot would have been the Soviets taking over not only eastern Europe but the whole continent. The idea that Patton could have taken any territory off the Soviets is preposterous in the extreme. Finally, I have no real beef with the American contribution in WW2, late as it was. My beef is the constant proclaiming over the past 70-odd years that the US won the war and that the other nations chipped in here and there where they could. Nobody outside of the US, with any knowledge at all of the times, believes that for one minute.
#4.1.1.1.2.2
Graphite
on
2017-09-16 10:51
(Reply)
Graphite: The idea that Patton could have taken any territory off the Soviets is preposterous in the extreme.
At the very least, it would have been extremely costly to everyone. The world was tired of war, and were ready for it to end. Meanwhile, the consensus was that Germany had to be broken apart, and Yalta agreed to the Soviets having a right of occupation to the country that had invaded and wreaked such destruction upon them. Graphite: My beef is the constant proclaiming over the past 70-odd years that the US won the war and that the other nations chipped in here and there where they could. Thought the English army had just won the war ...
#4.1.1.1.2.2.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-16 11:00
(Reply)
At the very least, it would have been extremely costly to everyone.
The majority of the troops who went ashore at Normandy were British (combining UK and Canadian troops). Whether that superiority in numbers still held in May 1945, I'm not sure. But I am positive that among the UK troops there would have been no appetite for further engagement. Britain was a democracy but by war's end its mood had swung markedly to the left; the common soldier was more likely to be a socialist than a capitalist; he would consider his Soviet counterpart a comrade who had smashed fascism, the scourge of the 1930s and '40s. Those guys would mutiny before they'd back Patton, even if by some ridiculous miracle he replaced Eisenhower. So with only US troops (plenty of whom would also refuse to fight the Soviets), any grand plan by Patton would be doomed. Thought the English army had just won the war ... In 1954, Germany and England played their first post-WW2 soccer match. On congratulating the English for their 3-1 victory, the German captain said, "We would have loved to have beaten you at your national game." The England captain's reply: "I can understand that. After all, we've beaten you at yours twice." If the story's not true, it should be.
#4.1.1.1.2.2.1.1
Graphite
on
2017-09-16 19:51
(Reply)
What the Russians did in WW II made the Germans look good. Our part in allowing and even assisting the Russians to take over Eastern Germany was a terrible decision by a less than honest and capable president. We knew what the Russians were doing and we allowed it. England's Churchill was even worse he colluded with the Russians to divide up Europe behind the backs of the allies. That was the exact time to challenge Russia. Russia's leaders and soldiers killed and raped wantonly and FDR and Churchill failed the world terribly.
As for Patton's ability his work speaks for him. Montgomery was an abject failure propped up by the U.S. and Eisenhower was a yes man who did the bidding of a terrible president. It is an interesting point; that the world was tired of war. So they traded a possible victory over communism for 70 years of communist killing and purges of tens of millions of people. Stupid and gutless. This will eventually play out with many more millions killed because you cannot reason with despotic nations/rulers/governments. You may be through with war but war is not through with you. Eventually Russia and now China will succeed in their effort to rule the world because it is too scary for some leaders to oppose them. Patton was right about the Russians in WW II and MacArthur was right about China and North Korea. When this unfinished business bites us in the ass, and it will, you can thank FDR, Churchill, Truman and Eisenhower and hundreds (if not thousands) of our chicken shit congressmen over the years.
#4.1.1.1.2.2.2
GoneWithTheWind
on
2017-09-18 21:28
(Reply)
Hey Bruce
Thank you for this article. I would like to forward it to others, but need some type of reference as to where it can be found. Has it been published somewhere besides MF? Thank you for your help! I learned 47 years ago not to bother with, let alone swallow anything any stateside chair warmer had to say about VN. I was there, and the if you watched and listened it was plain what was going on. My mind was made up when I got on that Seaboard jet to rotate out.
My ride out was on a Saturn jet in latter 68. Almost felt sorry for the stewardesses.
Le Minh Dao at the battle of Xuyen Loc
https://freenorthcarolina.blogspot.com/search?q=xuyen+loc Way to discredit yourself there by posting apologist revisionist history.
The "communist invasion" is a lie perpetrated by the real invaders, France and America. America invaded Vietnam based on the Gulf of Tonkin lie. The real fight was between western imperialists and Vietnam patriots who wanted sovereignty. The West obfuscates this historical FACT by pushing lies. Here's the truth about how America "saved" Vietnam. http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Anything-That-Moves-American/dp/1250045061/ http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Program-Americas-Forbidden-Bookshelf-ebook/dp/B00KGMIW6Q/ Ho only spent 2 years of his first 20 years in Viet Nam...where do you suppose he spent the rest of it? When Ho began to take over North Vietnam he killed so many innocent people and small farmers that he had to apologize in order not to be driven out of the North. Many of the Northern Vietnamese went south to escape his butchery. But of course you knew all of that right. And I will bet you are still a blame America first candidate...did you accompany Obama on his worldwide apology tour?
"I am convinced that the French could not win the war because the internal political situation in Vietnam, weak and confused, badly weakened their military position. I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader rather than Chief of State Bao Dai." — Dwight D. Eisenhower, Mandate for Change, 1953-56.
Any vote in Viet Nam would have been as accurate and fair as the current voting occurring in Venezuela.
indyjonesouthere: Any vote in Viet Nam would have been as accurate and fair as the current voting occurring in Venezuela.
Ho was considered a hero by his people and would have easily won any fair election at the time. That's why such an election, even though it was promised under the Geneva Accords, was never allowed to occur.
#8.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-17 09:23
(Reply)
Dwight D. Eisenhower: " I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader"
So much for defending Democracy, huh? That begs the question. If that were true why did the North Vietnamese kill millions of South Vietnamese? These very people that would have voted for Ho Chi Minh. The intent of the North was always to kill every adult in South Vietnam. That's how you remake a nation into a communist dictatorship.
As for "the fact that NV had more men coming of military age than we put out of action, each year" Simply put we should have bombed the shit out of Hanoi, North Vietnam and any place they hid. Our failure to fight to win doomed us. If general Norman Schwarzkopf had been the leader and the president (JFK and later Johnson) had not been interfering fools they could have turned NV into a shithole. If you can't do that then you have no business fighting the frigging war in the first place. We should have never gone to Vietnam but once we decided to do it we should have destroyed NV and killed everyone opposing us and done it from 20,000 feet in the air. Endless relentless bombing until the beg us to allow them to surrender. [[The intent of the North was always to kill every adult in South Vietnam. ]]
Ridiculous nonsense. And yet they did. A few adults escaped the shovels and hoes to the head but most died at the hands of the NV. Who could have possibly predicted it.
we should have bombed the shit out of Hanoi, North Vietnam and any place they hid.
Where was General LeMay when we really needed him.........:) IdahoBob: If that were true why did the North Vietnamese kill millions of South Vietnamese?
Why did the Americans kill millions of Vietnamese? IdahoBob: The intent of the North was always to kill every adult in South Vietnam. That's obviously not the case. Rather, they ruthlessly consolidated power after a bloody civil war. IdahoBob: Our failure to fight to win doomed us. The war could have been — and was — prolonged for as long as the Americans were willing to fight. But there was no possible military victory. IdahoBob: Endless relentless bombing until the beg us to allow them to surrender. Air power won't can't defeat an enemy without ground forces. The South Vietnamese government never had the support of the majority of the Vietnamese people outside the major cities. Americans killed the NVs that they were fighting, It is called "war", war is hell.
Ruthlessly as in killing 3-5 million South Vietnam civilians. "no possible military victory." No possible politically correct military victory. They should have bombed Hanoi and every NV hamlet and village 24/7 until there was nothing but smoking rubble. "Air power won't can't defeat an enemy without ground forces." Not true! Ask Japan. In some cases it is correct. But first you destroy their country/towns/villages and then you hunt the remaining soldiers down. You go after their leadership and their supply. Relentlessly every day, every hour until there is nothing left alive. We choose not to because JFK and Johnson claimed they were fighting a "limited" war. If we had fought to win it would have taken a year with far fewer casualties on our side. If we do not intend to fight to win we should not fight, period!!! IdahoBob: Americans killed the NVs that they were fighting, It is called "war", war is hell.
Americans also committed thousands of murders, such as at My Lai. IdahoBob: Ruthlessly as in killing 3-5 million South Vietnam civilians. Estimates of total war deaths are 1-3 million, soldiers and civilians, most in North Vietnam. IdahoBob: Not true! Ask Japan. Nuclear weapons are the exception. Are you suggesting the U.S. should have attacked North Vietnam with nuclear weapons? Even smart bombs are not sufficient to destroy a committed enemy force without ground forces. The 1999 battle for Mount Pastrik illustrates the situation. Without ground forces, the Serbs simply dispersed and dug in. Attacking bridges and infrastructure had little affect on the Serb military. However, deploying Kosovarian ground forces meant the Serbs had to concentrate their own forces to avoid being destroyed in detail. Once concentrated, air power then destroyed the Serb forces.
#9.1.3.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-09-19 17:50
(Reply)
I found this article and the following comments to be the most useful and interesting that I have read in a long time. I want to thank the writer and all the discussants for their efforts.
During the Vietnam War I was a captain and then a major. I played a critical role in introducing infrared sensors to combat in Vietnam. I also played a critical role in convincing Pres. Johnson not to escalate US forces in Vietnam from 500,000 to 1 million. I also knew Daniel Ellsberg. Originally he was an extreme enthusiast for the war. As part of the Army culture, after Korea, I opposed any US involvement in a land war in Asia. Also, I thought that the search and destroy tactics were providing the enemy with a lot of US targets. We withdrew from South Vietnam after the West had obtained victory. The Tet Offensive was a massive defeat for the Vietcong and the North Vietnamese. Right after the draft was discontinued the college antiwar efforts collapsed. However, by that time the New York Times and much of the US media destroyed American home front morale and gave the enemy the victory. the search and destroy tactics were providing the enemy with a lot of US targets.
Yes and although I wasn't familiar with the fact that NV had more men coming of military age than we put out of action, each year tells us all we need to know about body counts. 10/'67 - 5/'69 USARV, 6/'69 - 09/'71 OICC/RVN+, 06/'73 - 25/04/'75 DAO, US Embassy RVN |
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