Maggie's Farm

SweetPea: At that time in Europe anyone opposed to the communist was lumped into the "right wing"

As communism is on the extreme left, nearly everyone else is to their right. However, that doesn't make them right-wing when considered against other groups. In pre-WWII Germany, there were groups on the left, center, and right. The Social Democrats were on the left; the Democratic and Catholic Center parties were in the center; while the German Nationalist Party was on the right.

SweetPea: 90% of what Hitler did and believed was in perfect alignment with the prevailing left wing philosophy of the time and 0% of it aligned with what we today would think of as a right wing philosophy.

White Aryan supremacy, which characterized Nazism, is the most exaggerated hierarchical society imaginable. That puts it clearly on the political right.

Dangerous Dean: Hitler!!! Yes, there are Nazis in American politics today. They are on the left and they are using violence to stop the other side from even being heard. A compliant media cheers their every assault.

Nearly all scholars, then and now, place Nazism on the political right. Nearly all ordinary usage, then and now, place Nazism on the political right. Nazis garnered their primary support from the political right, and their primary opposition was from the political left, including democratic liberalism, which they believed they were supplanting. Today, whenever you read about neo-Nazis, they are associated with the political right.

You are conflating means with ends. Extremists use extreme means, and can be found on the political left or the political right.

mudbug: You'll have to come up with some example of a right-wing theme ...

If you redefine right-wing to suit your ideology, then that probably isn't possible.

mudbug: not just an isolated policy or statement from Hitler to call him a creature of the right.

We pointed to scholarship, then and now, to ordinary usage, then and now, and to the use of neo-Nazism today, to show that the ideology is considered to be on the political right.

The term originated in the French Revolution, with those on seated on the right of the Estates General being supporters of the Ancien Régime, with power strongly concentrated in the monarchy. Those advocating a more equal distribution of power were on the left. Nazism is characterized by extreme authoritarian nationalism, a strictly hierarchical society.

The attempt to redefine the left-right spectrum as equivalent to authoritarian-libertarian is a very recent phenomenon among the U.S. political right. However, it doesn't comport with either scholarly or ordinary usage. For instance, it would mean the French monarchists were left-wing, that the recent anarchist riot in Berkeley was right-wing, that neo-Nazis in Europe are leftwing, and so on.

mudbug: He wanted complete control of virtually every aspect of life from eugenics to create the master race to socialism to control the economy. None of that is consistent with "right wing" ideology.

There are authoritarians on the political left and on the political right. There are libertarians on the political left and on the political right. There are extremists on the political left and on the political right. You confuse means and ends.

mudbug: Actually, you didn't point to anything.

Sure we did. Noting that you are apparently using heterodox definitions, we pointed to the origin of the terms left and right, to how they have been used historically, and to how they are used today.

mudbug: You offered no policies of Hitler's to back up your or their assertion.

Sure. Using the standard definition, the political right is characterized by the advocacy of hierarchies. In its moderate form, that means holding to traditional institutions and mores. In an extreme form, Nazism advocated for white Aryan supremacy and the extermination of the Jews, about as hierarchical a goal as can be conceived.

mudbug: That works both ways.

We have supported our views by pointing to scholarly and ordinary usage, and by showing why your view is inconsistent with how the terms are used.

jma: Any ideology that suggests few control many others is leftist: a monarchism, totalitarianism, fascism, etc.

That makes no sense whatsoever, as the political left was defined as opposition to the monarchy. Rather, the left is defined as advocacy of egalitarianism, which can be found in moderate or extreme forms.

B Hammer: By the fact that the democrats do not say one word to even distance themselves from these actual fascists, means that they fully support them.

The rioters were reportedly left-wing anarchists, which is as far from fascism as one can be. Not distancing themselves from rioters may be evidence that someone provides tacit support, but remains circumstantial evidence. In any case, many people on the left have condemned the rioters.

SweetPea: Anarchy is not so different from fascism.

Fascism is authoritarian, not anarchistic.

There's no excusing rioting to protest Milo Yiannopoulos, just as there is no excusing Milo Yiannopoulos's white nationalist rhetoric.