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Saturday, October 22. 2016What would Milton say?
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I like Friedman he is usually right on. I do disagree that it is possible to somehow "establish a political climate of opinion which will make it politically profitable for the wrong people to do the right thing". Sounds like wishful thinking when faced with an impossible problem. The problem is no more complicated then this; Citizens and politicians have discovered that they can use our system to loot the treasury and to pass laws that favor them over the rest of the citizens and our constitution. To do this effectively they had to corrupt the judicial system and they have done that. The death (suspicious death) of Justice Scalia will be remembered as the end of constitutional law/justice in the future.
Our problems are not difficult to understand or to fix. But we will not fix them simply because human nature prefers to misuse power and to acquire 'free stuff'. But just as a super majority of liberals on the Supreme Court will assure our descent into the abyss a super majority of conservatives on the court could assure our return to constitutional law and justice. That IS the one thing that Trump 'could' do if elected. That single act (i.e. appointing perhaps three conservative Supreme Court Justices) could turn it all around. QUOTE: Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost come in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player. The problem with simplistic philosophies is that, while they are seemingly self-consistent and complete, they crumble when confronted with reality. Food safety is an example. One simplistic answer is to avoid businesses that have bad reputations. The problem is that it can be difficult to determine the source of food poisoning, and relying on the mob may result in injustices to a business that is not responsible while letting the guilty off free. Another simplistic solution is that people sue when their food is tainted. However, most people think it is better to prevent food poisoning through enforced sanitary measures than it is to sue afterward, when the damage is often diffused and difficult to monetize. Another example is modern medical drugs. Few people can properly assess the efficacy and safety of modern pharmaceuticals. Caveat emptor is a necessary, but not sufficient check in modern society. Zach, glad to see you. You don't like simplistic philosophies like "the law applies equally to everyone", so here is a question:
The FBI/Justice department gave amnesty to ALL of those who could have deleted Hillary’s email AFTER they were under subpoena. That in itself is extremely peculiar, because amnesty is supposed to be given to one perp, to prosecute the others. The FBI gave amnesty for all the multiple crimes - unsecured classified material (Petraeus prosecution), destruction of agency records, violation of Subpoena, lying to Federal Officials (Republican Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby prosecutions). So the "fix" was in before the secret "chance' Las Vegas airport meeting between Bill "can't keep the big dawg on the porch" Clinton and Lynch. They brought back Guccifer, the hacker who originally discovered the Hillary crimes. But they kept prosecuting him. Why not give him amnesty, too? They said they wanted to find out if he had more of hillary's email, which he had earlier said he had obtained. He said “no”, but why would he say “yes” without amnesty? Better to keep it hidden if he has it. That is what amnesty is for, according to the FBI. There is much more which has now come out about what was ignored by the FBI. Others are prosecuted for these crimes. I think I remember that Comey was involved in clearing hillary in her Whitewater scandal. Zach, do you agree with this blatant "fix" for special people, or should the laws apply to everyone equally as a simple philosophy? You seem to be changing the subject. How is this relevant to "Government has three primary functions"?
jaybird: That in itself is extremely peculiar, because amnesty is supposed to be given to one perp, to prosecute the others. Amnesty is given in order to compel testimony. jaybird: They brought back Guccifer, the hacker who originally discovered the Hillary crimes. But they kept prosecuting him. Guccifer and the government reached a plea deal, which included providing information about his activities. jaybird: He said “no”, but why would he say “yes” without amnesty? He said yes for a reduced sentence. jaybird: do you agree with this blatant "fix" for special people, or should the laws apply to everyone equally as a simple philosophy? Clinton was held to the same legal standard as others. You have to stretch the facts to argue otherwise. Zach, Zach, that was pathetic. No-one (not even you) believes that hillary was held to any standard whatsoever, or that the classified email wasn't intentionally destroyed, or Comey didn't fix the "investigation" like he did Whitewater, or that the FBI should agree to destroy laptop evidence without the "fix" being in, or that an "unconnected" person would not have been prosecuted for a small fraction of what hillary and her crooked cohort did.
I expected some complicated explanation about not applying the law the same way to everyone, because..... Or that hillary and her perps shouldn't be prosecuted because she may have a vagina, so that would be misogynist and racist. You disappointed us, and have negative credibility. We know to take what you write, and completely trust the opposite. jaybird: No-one (not even you) believes that hillary was held to any standard whatsoever
Sorry, but that is incorrect. Our view is that Clinton's actions were investigated, and while careless, did not meet the standard of a prosecutable offence. This view was shared by a large number of legal analysts who had stated before the FBI investigation was completed that her actions did not meet the standard of a prosecutable offence. Finally, this view is shared by career investigators at the FBI. jaybird: or that the classified email wasn't intentionally destroyed, You probably mean emails that included classified information. There were about a hundred emails that contained information classified after the fact. About three emails had portion markings, but not headers indicating that the contents were confidential. Two of those were improperly marked. jaybird: or Comey didn't fix the "investigation" like he did Whitewater, Sure. If the facts don't fit, make up new facts.
#2.1.1.2.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 09:34
(Reply)
To He/She/Zir Zach, Knight of the Clinton Crime Family Roundtable: no-one believes the "carelessness defense". You have to try again. She just happened to lose massive amounts of sensitive information in her zeal to protect her yoga routines? doesn't pass the red-face test.
Have you seen the recently released State Department video of hillary pontificating o others about how important it is to keep classified information secure? She knew what is "classified", but maybe her brain clot wiped (you mean with a cloth?) her memory of her video? Maybe you haven't watched it, because it would cause you to have severe cognitive dissonance. Or maybe her brain clot fried all her memory, so all she can say is "I don't recall" a jillion times under oath. (no-one believes that, either). Of course "carelessness" is not a defense under the relevant criminal statute. Not a defense in the words of the statute applied anyone else, that is. "Carelessness" about leaving a kid in a hot car to die, or a CEO careless about polluting the environment, or a bank teller "careless" about putting customer's money in her own account, or an illegal immigrant "careless" about recrossing the border and carelessly killing US citizens is your idea of a standard defense. No one buys it, Zach. But lets assume she is in fact (as you like to say) EXTREMELY careless. And all of her minion perps are EXTREMELY careless, too. Under the simple rule of equal law and justice for everyone, do you agree that everyone should have the "EXTREMELY careless" defense, not just crooked politicians given this made-up defense by their crooked cronies. Or just hillary, because she is the Greek god of presidential vaginas? Do you dispute that Comey was involved in clearing hillary of her Whitewater scandal? I've wondered about what kind of person would have no shame about continuously spinning and twisting to defend crooked politicians. I looked up "Zachriel" on the web. There is a Zachriel who claims to be the "ANGEL THAT RULES OVER MEMORY, PRESIDES OVER THE PLANET JUPITER" at zachriel dot com What a nut case!! Maybe this nutcase is presiding over hillary's memory? There is a Zachriel who posts the same kind of persistent BS, apparently to contaminate anotehr high quality website, at legalinsurrection dot com. There is a White House staffer who'se email was recently hacked. Are any of these you?
#2.1.1.2.1.1
jaybird
on
2016-10-23 14:51
(Reply)
jaybird: She just happened to lose massive amounts of sensitive information in her zeal to protect her yoga routines?
You are presumably referring to missing emails. For comparison, the Bush Administration lost about twenty-two million emails, many having to do with the run up to the Iraq War. The evidence is even stronger in the Bush Administration case that they were avoiding accountability, but thinking it and proving it in a court of law are different matters. jaybird: Maybe you haven't watched it, because it would cause you to have severe cognitive dissonance. Email is inherently insecure, but email is necessary for modern communications. This shows that State procedures and processes woefully lag technology. jaybird: Of course "carelessness" is not a defense under the relevant criminal statute. The case law for a century is that mere carelessness is handled administratively. jaybird: And all of her minion perps are EXTREMELY careless, too. Yes, and Colin Powell, aides to Condoleezza Rice, and much of the rest of the Bush Administration were extremely careless, as well. Unless you can show they were attempting to hide or improperly transfer the information, it doesn't make for a criminal case. jaybird: Do you dispute that Comey was involved in clearing hillary of her Whitewater scandal? James Comey was a deputy special council for the Republican-led United States Senate Whitewater Committee. As far as the Clintons, it turned up empty, but it led to the Ken Starr investigation, which came up with, wait for it, a sexual harassment lawsuit that was eventually thrown out of court.
#2.1.1.2.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 15:22
(Reply)
So you do think you are are the "ANGEL THAT RULES OVER MEMORY, PRESIDES OVER THE PLANET JUPITER"
What you write all makes sense now !
#2.1.1.2.1.1.1.1
jaybird
on
2016-10-23 17:37
(Reply)
They're prosecuting a senior general right now for the things they just let Clinton off on.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-vice-chairman-joint-chiefs-staff-pleads-guilty-federal-felony-leak-investigation And yet Clinton has committed literally thousands of violations of the national security laws, and then covered them up. Clinton is a criminal. She should be in prison. The fact she isn't is because our government is fundamentally corrupt. Zach is a paid troll sent here by Clinton and/or Soros. Zach's job is to refute our truth about Hillary, by muddying the water as much as possible.
When you understand that, the rest of the picture snaps into focus.
#2.1.1.3.1
Dangerous Dean
on
2016-10-23 00:26
(Reply)
Jim: They're prosecuting a senior general right now for the things they just let Clinton off on.
There is no evidence Clinton intentionally lied to the FBI. Jim: Clinton is a criminal. She should be in prison. The Director of the FBI said, "You know what would be a double standard? If she were prosecuted for gross negligence."
#2.1.1.3.2
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 09:38
(Reply)
It's hard to know where to start when unpacking rote Z-Bot fallacies. For they are many and they are all besides the original point.
The problem with simplistic philosophies is that, while they are seemingly self-consistent and complete, they crumble when confronted with reality. In the abstract that may be passively true but this isn't the abstract. If Z-Bot mean to apply this to Friedman, and then from Friedman to life - with this "reality" it claims - then it's a completely unbacked opinion the Z-bot aims to point to the its next barrage of nonsense: Food safety is an example. One simplistic answer is to avoid businesses that have bad reputations. The problem is that it can be difficult to determine the source of food poisoning, and relying on the mob may result in injustices to a business that is not responsible while letting the guilty off free. Another simplistic solution is that people sue when their food is tainted. However, most people think it is better to prevent food poisoning through enforced sanitary measures than it is to sue afterward, when the damage is often diffused and difficult to monetize. Food safety is not an example, of course, but it's these sorts of fallacies that Z-Bot is programmed to dispense. Ironically, neglecting food safety in fact is a potentially criminal offense when it is abused at harm or cost to others, which falls under two of the three allowable forces under Friedman. None of Z-Bot's aim is philosophical, of course, and it therefore neither applies to Friedman nor to structural public sector interests as such a contractual philosophy has always gone and goes. This applies to the usual hazards of life, especially life as a free man. Here Z-Bots conflicts the philosophy of liberty - for it is a philosophy - by slipping in "most people think" as a tacit lead into "most people prefer", the populist mob having nothing inherently to do with a valid philosophy of the kind that formed the republic by the principles of The Enlightenment. Typically that mob is at express odds with that structure. See, most people prefer bondage. Most people prefer unbuttered. Most people prefer strawberry. Most people prefer Chevy. But most structural principle in the American sense - which by "most" I mean all - "prefers" liberty, which takes food safety and sets it and a hundred thousand things like it outside of the public sector - except as matters of crime or tort - and certainly outside philosophy, except as a means - when collectivized and made into the dysfunctional Orwellian State - corrosive to Friedmaneque philosophies. What Z-Bots has done is rhetorical Alinskism. It is not an philosophical argument but a gutter-level diversion. Another example is modern medical drugs. Few people can properly assess the efficacy and safety of modern pharmaceuticals. Which is a hazard of life quite utterly distinct from Friedman. It's not an example of anything except a canard. Caveat emptor is a necessary, but not sufficient check in modern society. The only "check in modern society" - if by that we mean an enlightened, philosophical society that hews primarily and fundamentally to liberty, which was Friedman's obvious, singular focus - is that established precisely by his philosophical equivalent of the negative, meaning real, right. Of course you have no right to not be harmed. You have a right to limited recourse, that being fundamental to Friedman and his invocation of what it takes for a free, responsible, autonomous, adult mind to function at the highest level. But 'bots don't function at high levels. Bots are programmed. Typically as part of a collective of other bots in service of their master's whim. Ten..great points...but you're wasting your time. You can't reason a person out of a position that wasn't reasoned into. To minds like Zack, reality is not important. Just repeat the catechisms of the hive. Sad but true. Just my opinion..others may feel differently.
Bots cannot learn. Bots cannot think in abstracts. But bots can be programmed.
Ten: Ironically, neglecting food safety in fact is a potentially criminal offense when it is abused at harm or cost to others, which falls under two of the three allowable forces under Friedman.
It may fall under a negligence standard of criminal behavior, but without universally agreed standards, then criminalization would be arbitrary, and without inspections, enforcement would occur after the fact. The divide, in modern society, between food production and food consumption, resulted in problems in the food supply, and that resulted in government action to protect the food supply. Ten: See, most people prefer bondage. Actually, most people prefer not to be in bondage. But perhaps you see representative democracy as tyranny. And here we find Z-bot(s) resorting to standard deflecting programming:
It may fall under a negligence standard of criminal behavior, but without universally agreed standards, then criminalization would be arbitrary, and without inspections, enforcement would occur after the fact. Here Z-bot(s) rolls out a fallacy, another fallacy, and empty assertion, in that order. Obviously "universally agreed standards" is not only a whimsy, it's a fiction in the context of Friedman and his tort authority, which Z-bot(s) glosses over, that being its programming. This context simply is not Z-bot(s) desired top-down authoritarianism, but per Friedman what I previously correctly asserted was the condition and character of a people equipped to see to its own self-governance, that being its philosophy according to a higher virtue 'bot programming cannot fathom. Z-bot(s) then trots out the magical universal criminality principle, another asserted construct neither in evidence or valid pursuant Friedman and his free people. Fallacious. Lastly, Z-bot(s) makes an empty, arbitrary assertion based on these fallacies that in a civilization basing itself on Friedman's individual accountability, enforcement occurs after the fact. No, policing occurs both before and after the fact, whether self or public. Presented in the negative as somehow contrary to a functional system based on a sound philosophy, "enforcement after the fact" is an open-ended piece of rhetoric pursuant an implied condition not in evidence at any level pursuant Friedman. The divide, in modern society, between food production and food consumption, resulted in problems in the food supply, and that resulted in government action to protect the food supply. And the cow jumped over the moon. And the sun set. And she sang an aria. Here Z-bot(s) deploys a meaningless observation, one as devoid of relevant context as its other programming. Humans see this and naturally remark, so what, all the more so in the context of Friedman's views. Ten: See, most people prefer bondage. Actually, most people prefer not to be in bondage. But perhaps you see representative democracy as tyranny. And lastly, Z-bot(s) here indicates the absence of a sarcasm routine as well as an overt deflection, which, as we consistently see, is part of the program. A 'bot asserts vague and deflecting rhetorical abstracts as if the 'bot was capable of actually wielding a valid philosophical abstract, which we see evidently it cannot. A 'bot can be programmed but it cannot be educated. Ten: Here Z-bot(s) rolls out a fallacy, another fallacy, and empty assertion, in that order.
The point raised was that democratic societies have found it efficacious to implement rules for production in order to safeguard the food supply. We pointed out the problems with relying solely upon tort, which you disregarded. Waving your hands is not an argument. Another example is pollution, where the damage is too diffused to result in practical tort absent a legal framework that addresses pollution directly.
#2.2.2.1.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 11:36
(Reply)
Part of 'bot programming is swamping the loss with noise. This, it is assumed, also diverts attention. To wit:
The point raised... Was Friedman's philosophy. The Z-bot(s) themselves diverted that meaning - "the point" the Z-bot(s) "raised" - with a deflection into food supplies and an appeal to presumptive preventative authoritarianism it eventually warped into an ersatz definition of "democracy". ...was that democratic societies... The "democratic" tyranny of the majority is implicit in Friedman, one naturally reminds the Z-bot(s), (assuming bot(s) reason and are educable, which one realizes is a bad bet.) ...have found it efficacious... Assertive and fallacious by way of its appeal to convention and to a success of principle not in evidence. Begs the definition of "efficacious" while denying a fuller perspective on related pragmatism, not that Friedman applies to same. Therefore, also unrelated to Friedman. ...to implement rules... Ergo, vague authoritarianism. ...for production in order to safeguard the food supply. Rather, in order to assert that such authority "safeguards" any target it is brought to bear on, given the record, again violating Friedman. ...We pointed out the problems with relying solely upon tort... Untrue. The Z-bot(s) did no such thing, and instead at best asserted an implicit connection, not a virtuous condition. Again we find the diversion well violates Friedman, that being the reason he observed the structure he did: One has not to observe a corrective except that it's counter already exists. Here Z-bot(s) simply steamroll - or handwave - the obvious philosophy and, as I right noted, swamp the error in more noise. ...which you disregarded. Blatantly dishonest, as noted. ...Waving your hands is not an argument. Implies a victory over the subject not remotely in evidence, and yet again, violates the meaning of Friedman's philosophy, not least of which his causes and effects, they being more than sufficiently visible and confirmed to negate the Z-bot'(s) entire specious counter-claims even as weak and transparent as they are. Another example is pollution, where the damage is too diffused to result in practical tort absent a legal framework that addresses pollution directly. Fallacious: B is not rendered true because A can be asserted to be true. Z-bot(s) programming fails to recognize that presumed correlation is not universal, uniform causation, and Z-bot(s) fails to recognize that its diversion simply doubles down on the same rote repetitive non-argument every time the lines of code are reprocessed. I believe the term is hand-waving. Recall that 'bot(s) are not educable.
#2.2.2.1.1.1
Ten
on
2016-10-23 12:01
(Reply)
Ten: Implies a victory over the subject not remotely in evidence
No. It just means you haven't addressed the argument.
#2.2.2.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 12:10
(Reply)
the argument.
And here Z-bot(s) issues its most potent deflection, namely that the original credible, observable, real point somehow evaporated to be replaced, somehow more credibly, by the Z-bot'(s) own deflection. A deflection based on a deflection, in other words. From this Z-bot(s) descends into its usual and characteristic end-program, claiming that its own hand-waving constitutes a valid entry into logic and reason.
#2.2.2.1.1.1.1.1
Ten
on
2016-10-23 12:27
(Reply)
Ten: the argument.
Yes, the argument. For example, with air pollution, the damage is too diffuse to be amenable to amelioration by tort. The science shows that particulates result in a statistical increase in asthma. However, it's generally not possible to show that a specific case of asthma is due to or aggravated by particulate pollution, and if there are several emitters, it's generally not possible to determine which emitter is at fault. The damage to an individual may be difficult to monetize, and will vary considerably from simple irritation to a shortened projected lifespan. Furthermore, individuals can rarely mount a successful tort against large corporations regardless of the merit. In other words, the damage is diffuse, and the costs to recover are high. In a representative democracy, these and other considerations are balanced through legislation. This is called an argument. You may now resume waving your hands so as to avoid having to address the argument.
#2.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 14:04
(Reply)
Running that same program again, Z-bot(s) retort:
Yes, the argument. For example, with air pollution, the damage is too diffuse to be amenable to amelioration by tort. Naturally, Friedman lodged a philosophy, a philosophy requiring a perspective on its dismal alternative. Humans grasp this, humans such as The News Junkie. Z-bot(s) therefore conjured an "argument" false on its face, recently dangling the canard that authority cannot justly sue for damages, or that if it can, such tort is inadequate for the purposes of this "democracy" Z-bot(s) then goes on to malign the contextual meaning of. In other words, this open-ended "democracy" turns out to be the establishment of self-supporting force while constitutional liberty, as Friedman rightly grasps it, has a prior contract and fundamental legal structure and precedent whose very purpose is to limit and constrain the populist and eventually rogue "democracy". This liberty (not philosophically but with respect to the meanings of words) is incumbent in rudimentary programming. It simply repeats, unilluminated. There being zero parallels between Friedman and a crude program, and despite there being therefore no shared level, naturally Z-bot(s) endlessly deflects, appealing to its own construct as means to gain hopeful rational entree. The interesting thing is that Z-bot(s) co-opts entire phrases and re-deploys them with no regard to precision. This then is not thought. It is rote habit constructed on the simple premise that an audience willing to be abused by it is somehow convertible to it. The science shows that particulates result in a statistical increase in asthma. However, it's generally not possible to show that a specific case of asthma is due to or aggravated by particulate pollution, and if there are several emitters, it's generally not possible to determine which emitter is at fault. The damage to an individual may be difficult to monetize, and will vary considerably from simple irritation to a shortened projected lifespan. Furthermore, individuals can rarely mount a successful tort against large corporations regardless of the merit. In other words, the damage is diffuse, and the costs to recover are high. In a representative democracy, these and other considerations are balanced through legislation. Here is another example of a random assertion gussied up, the program insists, as an "argument. It's actually meant appeal to an implicit fallacy, one that itself somehow never qualifies for the true definition of hand-waving. What its saying - copiously and with abuse to words like "recover", "representative", "democracy", and especially "balanced" - is that harms happen and by their nature, are difficult to resolve, if resolution is a suitable goal in a "democratic" society interested not with Friedman's liberty, but with the shackles of force and equality and thus, with gross subjectivity, failure, unfairness, and eventually, oppression. As opposition we find not just Friedman but, on a different tangent, Vonnegut, another real human mind who perceived the fuller perspective of the philosophy of liberty from force and who having correctly done so, brought the thought vividly to life. These threads humans understand, which is why the principle thereof resonates and produces works not just of intellectual precision but of meaningful art. How 'bot hand-waving therefore comports with any of this is anyone's guess, especially, evidently, Z-bot(s) programmer(s) who hithertofore expresses little appreciation for broader abstracts, no matter how appealing and compelling and elegant they may be to live humans. This is called an argument. You may now resume waving your hands so as to avoid having to address the argument. And that may be the final line of code. We shall see; of that one has no doubt.
#2.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
Ten
on
2016-10-23 15:06
(Reply)
Sorry. The signal-to-noise ratio in your comments is far too low for successful communications.
#2.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2016-10-23 15:24
(Reply)
And the best way to get the best minds in Washington, DC to undo the imperial presidency is to elect Donald Trump to the Presidency.
Incentives matter. |