Maggie's Farm

"There are no doctors in this list."

The federal government typically doesn't list "Dr" or "MD" on these types of lists. Most of the people you listed are in fact physicians (doctors).

Damn, I hate it when people I generally agree with say stupid stuff.

No ifs, ands or buts about it. Instead of wondering if something someone else says is fact or fiction, get off your arse and do some freakin' research.

http://www.phoenix.va.gov/providerinfo/index.asp

Start looking up the names on the list yourself.

From Bulldog:

"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."~Alberto Brandolini

The point of the original post was that it was proof that the VA is bloated with high paid administrators rater than doctors. The proof was false. It proved nothing of the sort.

I doubt that the doctors are responsible for the scheduling atrocities that have been reported. That's not something they would typically be involved with.

The salaries reported for these physicians is significantly below what their peers earn. The problem is not the salary they are paid, but rather the method for determining these salaries. Veterans would be better off if we abolished the VA system and they received a stipend or vouchers for medical care or insurance and obtained care in the private market.

I'll quote from Bulldog once more:

"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."~Alberto Brandolini

Allow me to address some of the bullshit being transmitted by the uninformed, but first - No, I don't work at the VA or for the VA or for the government. When I was in medical school, one of our teaching hospitals was a VA - that's where I got a front row seat observing and experiencing the inefficiencies and ineffectiveness of government run anything. I'm not defending the VA. I'm just attacking bad facts and bad reasoning.

For example, the original post by Gwyinnie was full of bad facts. A further example of bad (wrong) facts is:

"Most doctors, and specialists, who work for the VA, expenses for medical school are paid for by the VA. For that they obligate themselves to a serving the VA for X amount of years and understand that they will receive a lower salary in the interim."

Aside from the implication that specialists are not doctors (actually, "physician" is a better term as doctors include those with a PhD or other doctorate degree), the assertion that the VA provides scholarships for medical students who then are obliged to work at the VA is pure fiction.

Perhaps you are referring to the few medical students who accept a scholarship from one of the branches of the armed forces and then repay the scholarship by serving in that branch at an ACTIVE military hospital on a military base (NOT the VA).

Many doctors who work in the VA system - particularly specialists - also work at other hospitals particularly when the VA hospital they work at is associated with a medical school or postgraduate training program. However, many doctors practice solely at a VA hospital. Their salaries (on average) are much lower than what their peers earn.

So, why would someone opt for a lower salary versus a higher salary? I hope I don't need to spell this out, but some doctors have to opt for a "captive" audience - patients who can get "free" care at the VA or pay big dollars to see a private doctor and opt for the free care - because they can't compete in the private market. Also, some doctors like the fixed hours ("if the patient is sick after 5PM, it's not my concern"), etc.

While there are some fine doctors in the VA system, on average the care is better in the private world where pay is (or was) based on supply and demand and the doctor is (or was) responsible directly to the patient rather than the doctor's employer - hopefully you can see the parallel to life under Obamacare where pay is based on what the government says it is and (as more doctors become hospital employees) the doctors work for hospitals rather than for patients.

With the exception of physicians who are also administrators, MOST doctors in the VA system just take care of the patient load they are presented with - although they're in no rush to work too hard because they get the same whether they work fast or slow, i.e. they have no skin in the game. They don't monkey with the schedule, etc. That's something the clerical staff (non-doctors) ad their administrative bosses handle. In the case of specialty care where the specialist works at several other hospitals, the doctor is really in the dark regarding appointments, etc.

Where the VA also functions as a teaching hospital, patients are often viewed by the physician staff more as practice material than patients. The medical students and residents have no long term obligation at the VA. They simply view it as a means to gain experience so that they can go out and treat their own patients. In exchange for this experience, they provide care for the vets during their training period. From an economic (that doesn't mean financial) standpoint, they want to get as much as they can while giving as little as they can.