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Tuesday, July 15. 2014
In recent history, sexual interests and inclinations outside of bourgeois Judeo-Christian monogamy have been labeled as immoral and "perversions" in the Western world, and in Western Psychiatry. Western Psychiatry has even categorized them in detail but some (such as homosexuality, which I find to be often a dubious categorization of people) have fallen out of favor due to political pressure.
Among the things which the Western world has relatively-recently and variously considered antisocial (lacking in normal conscience) or perverse (defined as outside local social norms) and/or illegal are polygamy, adultery, promiscuity, nymphomania, rape, incest, pedophilia, necrophilia, miscengenation, internet pron, homosexuality, orgies and wife-swapping and related debaucheries, cross-dressing, childrens' pre-pubertal sexual interests, transgenderism, paraphilias and many fetishes like masochism, etc, prostitution, whoremongering, zoophilia, and so forth.
These are all culturally and/or religiously-determined categories of the wacky and disorderly, Bonobo-like vicissitudes of the human sex drive and of human psychology. Many humans successfully repress their inner Bonobo and happily adhere to their local cultural and moral codes, more or less. Many others lack a strong Bonobo streak, but it's not as if normal people never have wacky and aberrant fantasies and "curiosities".
As a Psychiatrist in the Western world, I can easily accept that many such things are statistically abnormal (ie at ends of bell curves), but high IQ is "abnormal" too.
I recently read this: 'Pedophilia is natural and normal for males'. Not "normal," I think, but certainly culturally-normative in parts of the Arab and Asian worlds. Some of our readers are quick to label perversions as "sick" if not just plain appalling or revolting. So is my natural inclination, but I think that inclination is culturally- and religiously- determined. Many human cultures view things otherwise.
Is there a Western socio-cultural trend to normalize previously-perverse and antisocial behaviors and to abnormalize conventional morality? I think so. In Psychoanalysis, we think of these things as embedded in problematic personality structures, but we could be wrong.
Planned Parenthood Teaches 15 Year-Old on Bondage, Whipping, Gagging & Defecation
A judicial move to normalize incest
I am not claiming that I do not make moral or social judgements about behavior. All I claim is that it's complicated because living in a culture is part of being human, so "natural" loses meaning.
I will await discussion, but I may need to tie you up with duct tape and whip you. Here's your fun fetish joke du jour:
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Justice Scalia predicted the slippery slope in Lawrence v. Texas. That day is here. Polygamy will be the next to be legalized because legally it cannot be distinguished from same-sex marriage. The identical arguments apply. Incest also cannot be sustained. Pedophilia will be harder for the activists to overcome, because it involves under-age participants who supposedly cannot give knowing consent. The activists will have to work on lowering age-of-consent laws.
As a former chaplain to children torn from unsafe homes, and sometimes driven mad after being damaged (physically, emotionally) by sexual abuse, I can only shout furiously that there is nothing natural about pedophilia from the child's perspective. To be crude, the orifices are too small. Pedophiles are monsters. Not to mention the abuse of trust when people supposed to be caregivers (fathers, mothers, mothers' boyfriends, priests, teachers, uncles, etc prey sexually upon kids they should be protecting, feeding, educating, giving moral guidance to. Ripped, bruised bodies may heal faster than betrayed hearts and minds. Children can be cowed, manipulated, seduced into going along with something a more powerful adult is turned on by. That doesn't make it right. Jesus had harsh words for anyone who brings a child to harm....see Matthew 18:6 or 25:40
Agreed, but where do you find a good millstone now-a-days? Because prison doesn't seem like a harsh enough punishment. Perhaps we can borrow one tradition from the Afghans, give the offender to the women (strike that, to the mothers)
Thanks for the straight talk. Now, respectfully, here is some straight talk in reply: there is only one moral standard. It applies universally to all human beings regardless of color or culture. It is called the Natural Law, and it is reflected most precisely in the teachings of the Christian religion. Any act that transgresses the Natural Law is immoral and should never be tolerated by moral people.
In the case of pedophilia: I do not give a tinker's damn if it is culturally acceptable in Tibet or Timbuktu. It is always and everywhere completely immoral and intolerable. Those who practice it, no matter what race, ethnic group, or culture they belong to, should be locked away from children in concentration camps, or simply killed.
Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion in this forum.
And where do you draw the line?
We're close to defining a 25 year old as a child, simply because he's so lacking in mental development due to the way society shields him that he's the mental agility that would be typical of a 10 year old a century ago...
That would mean that we should redefine pedophilia as having sexual interests in people under 25...
Would you go for that?
And we're now branding 18 year old boys who show sexual interest in their 17 year old girlfriends as pedophiles.
A 10 year old boy can get on the sex offenders' registry for kissing his 12 year old girl.
Of course are things reversed, the girl is never punished...
And that's the crux. I'm all for protecting children from predators, but where do you draw the line.
And no, there's no "universal morality". The very fact that moral standards differ between cultures shows that plainly.
There is only you trying to impose your moral standards on everyone else. I may or may not agree with them (or I may agree with them in part) but that doesn't mean they're universal.
Nice strawman argument. You know that he was talking about adult predators not 25 year olds being abused. Our society is drinking from a cup that is brimming over with moral depravity. An adult that violates a child is evil and should be dealt with as such.
no, but once we redefine 25 year olds as children (and we're close to doing just that) that means your 26 year old guy who's married to his 24 year old sweetheart is now a pedophile...
There is no strawman, just taking his own argument to its logical conclusion.
Moral standards are very consistent over time and throughout cultures. C.S.Lewis gives a great description of this in the very beginning of his book "Mere Christianity".
He proves logically that humans do have a built in natural or moral law. It's worth reading.
Dr. Bliss leaves out some supporting evidence for the removal of homosexuality from the diagnostic manual, it was not just political correctness.There is a lot of evidence that gender orientation may be determined during a "critical window" of development in utero when hormonal influence takes place. Absent testosterone, the brain feminizes. With the wrong hormone present the opposite may occur. Thus the daughters of mothers who received DES to save a pregnancy not only ended up with genital and uterine abnormalities, they were somewhat masculinized - preferred slacks to skirts, rejected jewelry, were more into sports and athletics, more career than maternal oriented. (see John Money and Anke Erhardt) and it was said, which may also have been a feature of the 70's when this work was reported, that they were not homosexual.
As for the rest of the unusual practices, would you want your son to be an object of desire in "Man Boy Love Society?"
Biological and hormonal influences - variations of the "born that way" lie - were completely discredited in the 1990s when:
- we mapped the human genome, and found no genes associated with sexual orientation.
- studies of identical twins showed abysmally low correlation for homosexuality - meaning that no strong biological cause exists.
There definitely is a DEVELOPMENTAL window during which boys separate from mother and identify with father - and studies confirm that many male homosexuals experienced absence/missed connection at that crucial inflection point.
Other DEVELOPMENTAL issues that occur with statistical significance in the histories of gays and lesbians include:
- peer rejection in childhood or adolescence
- early sexualization (ie abuse)
- smothering or domineering mother (for males)
- weak, distant, absent, or abusive father (for both gay men and lesbians)
Pedophilia is disgusting and not normal. However humans having sex at and after puberty is normal and exactly what god or mother nature intended. Would a man find a post puberty female sexually attractive? Duh! That is the reason for puberty and the sexual signal/attractiveness is the result of puberty. We as a civiliazation decide that 18 or 21 or 16 (in some states) is adulthood and anything younger is a child or limbo or some other legal but not natural construct. To call sex with a 6 year old and sex with a 16 year old "pedophilia and to imply both are equally wrong/disgusting is stupid and more about politics and an agenda. It is interesting that the case brought before SCOTUS to decide the right or wrong about statutory rape involved a boy/man who was 3 days older then his girlfriend. SCOTUS ruled that we can indeed pass any law we want even if it flies in the face of logic and biology.
As for the other "not normal" sexual acts I agree with the majority that of course the ones I like are "normal" and the ones I dislike are perverted and should be punished.
It is not surprising that Planned Parenthood would entertain and teach violent sexual practices since their entire philosophy is based on violence to the unborn.
If you consider general human interaction instead of sex, I think you can simplify the problem.
When we meet people on the street, we don't hit them as a greeting. Violence is wrong. Rape is wrong for the same reason. Any initiation of force is wrong, unless the other person wants to be tied up, etc.
I agree that there is a trend towards normalization, which is offset by religious, cultural and other factors. Dress and nudity is an example. A nude person walking on a beach would be normal in some locations and totally unacceptable in others.
"Violence is wrong. Rape is wrong for the same reason. Any initiation of force is wrong, unless the other person wants to be tied up, etc."
correct. Except we have criminalised the BDSM, if you tie up your partner you're guilty of sexual abuse even if your partner wanted to be tied up.
Another case where consensual behaviour, personal preferences and choice, are criminalised for no reason.
It's estimated 5-10% of the adult population actively enjoys it, and an unknown but higher percentage would like to try it but is afraid to do so because of social and legal pressure that drives it into the sphere of taboo.
Leave people be to do as they wish as long as there's consent between them.
Of course there's risk involved, once in a blue monday (and especially due to poor education, caused by it being in the taboo sphere so people get their entire idea about it from porn movies and pictures, staged scenarios that you should never attempt) someone ends up dead or seriously injured.
But there's more deaths and serious injuries to to say bungee jumping or parachute jumps, both perfectly legal activities and highly regulated. So just the fact that there's some risk involved (which of course adds to the thrill) is no reason to ban it. No, the ban is solely because of twisted morality arguments ("it's not as God prescribed people should make love, so it's illegal" is what is the real reason all laws outlawing specific sexual conduct say).
Great post. My stream of consciousness response:
Of all the culturally or religiously determined perversities I support the prohibition against pedophilia most strongly, mostly because I'm a parent and cannot imagine why anyone would see children as sexual objects and still be described as a healthy adult human being. Children are not able to make informed decisions and adults preying upon them are exploiting children's natural respect for adults.
Also, I think the biologically determined perversities (like incest among adults) are still completely valid, Aussie judges notwithstanding, and believe those should still be subjects of shaming. It is the only way I can think of to encourage a healthy and diverse gene pool. If elderly siblings can't keep their hands off each other I guess I don't care though. Homosexuality is a biological abhorrence, I recognize, so I wish it wasn't a fact of life and yet I cannot go so far as to condemn it. Too many friends and relatives in that camp.
Beyond that I don't think society has a strong interest in what happens in bedrooms.
The Christian ideal has been found too difficult.... paganism is so much easier and more fun because... sex, sex, sex. Western civilization, a subset of Christianity, is fading away like the Roman empire. Goodbye life, liberty & justice we would rather have sex, sex, sex.
There is absolute moral truth, it often gives us the feeling of being "imposed upon". It's the tug of the Holy Spirit you feel, pray for wisdom to hear/answer.
The End (of our culture) is much more near than it was just a decade ago. Pedophilia is not normal. It is a disgusting act of selfishness perpetrated upon innocents who are unable to defend themselves. While the government may well move to normalize pedophilia it will always be wrong no matter how many cowards in Supreme Court robes ever declare that it is ok. For the record, I don't think that pedophilia is going to be legal in the US any time soon. But we are on the slope and it is getting more and more slippery as we slide down.
I think polygamy will still face problems. It's a construct of the EVIL Patriarchal Society. Which LibProgs openly despise (although I think at least half of them really like it - maybe more than half).
Also, deciding that marriage is between two people (as opposed to a man and a women) is not the same as saying marriage is what ever the heck you want it to be. I haven't sat down and talked with any of the gay people I know to try and understand why "marriage" is important to them. Then again, none of the gay people I know are religious. - I get the feeling (un-informed and hence likely not valid) that perhaps it's a case of: Because you said I couldn't. I mean the civil side was covered in a lot of places so the marriage thing it would seem needed to be religious. Why would an atheist get married (aside from insurance and taxes)?
I'm curious to see which behavior is the next one to be deemed "normal". Homosexual sex with siblings, sex with heterosexual siblings, incest in general, pedophilia - or specifically male pedophilia i.e. boys. Sex with animals, marriage to animals, female pedophilia (girls) Girls will likely be last in this culture (You will note - that I assume it's going to eventually include ALL of them - at least for some class resident - I'd say citizen but that term is rapidly loosing it's meaning)
The age thing is much more difficult - Feminists have been screaming that women of any age are unable to give consent for sex in the presence of alcohol or drugs - or probably anything that affects judgement (say like getting horny). And that consent is no longer sufficient - it has to be Continual Enthusiastic Consent - presumably from the time the two make physical contact until at least a few days later and if it keeps going like it is - quite probably 30 years after (possibly life).
Personally I think LibProgs are in general guilty of child abuse - I certainly think that the LibProg agenda of putting perceived self esteem ahead of education is child abuse. So I think pedophilia in the case of boys might be the next pause on the slippery slope to chaos. Although apparently male consent for sex is unimportant - at any age - as long as it's post pubescent. So maybe the next thing will be Female pedophiles and pubescent boys is "normal".
Then - this is what comes of attempting to legislate morality rather than living and teaching it.