Maggie's Farm

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Tuesday, August 27. 2013

History and the idea of progress

Sultan: Egypt is Where History Goes to Die


A quote:



The assumption that historical processes align with a forward motion, that the liberalization of a society moves it forward, are so innate that it goes unquestioned. It is why democracy is held to be a good, entirely apart from its outcome. Even if democratic elections lead to a takeover by a junta of fanatical cannibals, the very act of holding an election moves a society forward through one hoop in the great circus of historical processes. The immediate result may be cannibalism, but in the long run, as Arab Spring advocates remind us from the editorial pages, the society moves forward.


The liberal understanding of history made it impossible to see the Muslim Brotherhood for what it was because its victory did not fit the march of progress. The victory of the Muslim Brotherhood in a democratic election meant that it was progressive. Because that is how the forward motion of history is meant to work. And its overthrow had to be considered reactionary, regardless of the issues...



Here at Maggie's Farm, where we use tractors and fossil fuel and the internet, we nonetheless tend to view the notion of  "progress" as a false idol.


Posted by Bird Dog in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 19:00 | Comments (5) | Trackbacks (0)

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I'll have to say I'm coming round to W. Lewis Amselem's idea over at Diplomad 2.0. Namely, that the U.S. should be promoting liberty instead of democracy. That you need a culture of the first to support that latter. As we see here in America, democracy can become a threat to liberty when the the people lose their love of liberty.

QUOTE:
At the risk of sounding like a neo-Marxist or a neo-Darwinist, I would argue that democracy might be the highest form of liberty, but that over time time, democracy can become a threat to liberty--a Jupiter chopping up his father Saturn sort of affair.


Now, the problem with liberty before democracy is that the Left don't like people having liberty except in manners in which they approve. Living your life with minimal interference from busybodies and nanny-staters is not something of which they approve.
#1 JKB on 2013-08-27 19:37 (Reply)
There is no problem with either liberty or democracy -- assuming that they are introduced into a politically mature community, that is, a community that has some practical experience with self reliance and independent decision making. For example, as England slowly evolved from an absolute monarchy into a (unwritten) constitutional, representative state, growing numbers of its people entered the middle class or had some degree of economic independence. Political freedoms and responsibilities were a natural extension of their economic counterparts.

For counterexample, Imperial Russia was an absolutist, feudal state when it was replaced by the trappings of a republic and quickly fell back to absolutism of the Left. Russian peasants had little practical experience with economic liberty and so political liberty was a foreign concept that they were ill-equipped to handle. In fact, Lenin's Commie Party specifically took on the role of leader of the proletariat. Who could trust peasants?

Afghanistan, Iraq, any of those third world pigsties combine with western notions of of liberty and democracy like oil and water. I'd expect more from a herd of goats. Apologies to all goats for the comparison.
#2 wirraway on 2013-08-27 22:46 (Reply)
We held similar assumptions and made similar mistakes with regard to China's gropings towards electoral government in the early 20th Century. What we thought they wanted Democracy for and what they wanted it for weren't the same thing. Chinese like, say, Madame Chiang Kai-shek knew that and were able to sustain and encourage public support by catering to Americans' preconceptions.

People like Joe Stillwell, who had spent time in China and who deeply admired the Chinese, knew that a democratic China would never look like America even if it achieved a working democratic polity. But you couldn't convince the folks back home that the Chinese democrats weren't just like Thomas Jefferson or John Adams.
#3 T.K. Tortch on 2013-08-28 09:28 (Reply)
But now that China has permitted a bit of liberty in the economic sphere, the desire for liberty in other areas is growing. And it seems impossible, without massive unrest, that the Chinese government can stop the march toward liberty and perhaps, eventually, democracy.

However, America in her advanced state of "democracy" is showing how to maim economic liberty. It remains to be seen whether the injuries are permanent or if the people throw off the drag as was done in the early eighties.

I'm hopeful that the failure of the liberty-haters to create a viable economy will push the populace back toward liberty and prosperity. All the laments about the great change and permanent unemployment is mostly from those who distrust liberty and seek to rationalize the failures of their policies. That these laments come from Left and Right is itself lamentable. Can't we have just one political party that doesn't despise the Constitution? I suppose not since who like being told they can't do something, especially, if you have a brilliant plan supported by all the famous universities that involves underpants, ???? and then profit
#3.1 JKB on 2013-08-28 11:47 (Reply)
But now that China has permitted a bit of liberty in the economic sphere, the desire for liberty in other areas is growing. And it seems impossible, without massive unrest, that the Chinese government can stop the march toward liberty and perhaps, eventually, democracy.

I guess we're going to find out, as China's leadership is now making noises about bringing Maoism back in from the cold. China and "massive unrest" haven't exactly been strangers over the last 150 years, even when the Japanese weren't mucking around. But the average Chinese today isn't the hapless peasant of 1911, 1950 or even 1989.
#3.1.1 T.K. Tortch on 2013-08-28 17:47 (Reply)

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