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Sunday, April 8. 2012The Fall Of South Vietnam Will Ever Be A Shame On the USMy old friend Bob Turner served in Vietnam in various capacities. He then went on to law school and teaches national security law at the University of Virginia, having also headed up that section for the American Bar Association. Want to be impressed? Read his bio at the link of his name above. Below, he writes about the last days of South Vietnam and what brought them about. This is slightly edited from another piece he recently wrote.
We knew each other during our college years. In the summer of 1971, Bob and I met up for a drink in Saigon when I'd returned as a civilian, before I took off all over South Vietnam in a commandeered Jeep, sleeping in the villes at night. We'd won the war at that point, only to see that and South Vietnam's freedom wasted by the negligence of the US Congress. Trackbacks
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I'm very proud to say that we kicked their asses all over SVN in the '68 Tet offensive and again in '69. And he's absolutely right - we had the war won and SVN could be similar to South Korea as a result.
The politicians lost that war - we (speaking for all of us who spent time incountry) did our job - they didn't do theirs.
#1
Tom Francis
on
2012-04-08 21:56
President LBJ is largely at fault for not listening to the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommendations. The JCS recommended mining Haiphong harbor, and carpet bombing Hanoi every day using B-52's [ordinance carried in each B-52: 88 500 lb bombs, and 24 750 lb bombs].
Since this was prior to North Viet Nam's acquiring of SAM missiles, there was no credible defense against the B-52's, which flew much higher than anti-aircraft could reach. And Viet Nam's pitiful air force and inexperienced pilots were no match for U.S. fighters. Hanoi's leadership could not have politically withstood such massive aerial destruction day after day. And its harbor lifeline would be cut, making life doubly miserable for the North's people. The strategy was a good one, with little downside. The North would have been forced to sue for peace in short order. But Lyndon Johnson believed he was smarter than his American carreer military generals and admirals [Hitler comes to mind]. Johnson insisted on a land war, which may have worked on open ground like Europe, but which was a terrible mistake in SEA's terrain. I served in Viet Nam [My comment above was cut off. Here's the rest of it]:
I served in Viet Nam
#3
Dr. EverettV. Scott
on
2012-04-08 22:21
[One more try]:
...I served in Viet Nam [old timey spelling] and I still remember the first Armed Forces TV broadcast the day I arrived: "This week 337 Americans were killed in combat operations...". Every week while I was there ['67 - '68] hundreds of soldiers were killed. I blame President Johnson for overruling his military commanders.
#4
Dr. Everett V. Scott
on
2012-04-08 22:23
Pols overruling military commanders. That has a long history, and will have a long future.
#4.1
Bird Dog
on
2012-04-08 22:42
Actually a short future for many countries, as those countries usually fail. Not always but usually.
#4.1.1
Bruce Kesler
on
2012-04-08 22:47
It almost never gets on the radar -- but Theiu's PERSONAL secretary was Hanoi's TOP AGENT.
This reality only became apparent upon his death -- long after the war -- while residing in Orange County, California. MACV long informed Theiu that he had moles -- he wouldn't do a damn thing about it. This is why he was cut out of the Paris negotiations. ===== Beyond that: two US Army officers testified before Congress WRT the astounding blazes that destroyed 97% of ARVN's POL. If you recall: OPEC's embargo ramped international oil prices to the moon. Theiu purchased all of the oil he could get his hands on ASAP with American money. Then, against the explicit advice ( demands ) of the US Army he had his depots wildly over loaded with refined fuels -- to the point that ANY fire would crossover and recreate Port Chicago. The Commies sat back and then fired a HANDFUL of Soviet 122mm Grad rockets into Theiu's twin depots. They were utterly destroyed, of course. After blowing $ 10,000,000,000 in a few hours -- Theiu requested that Congress replace everything. The US Army testimony was so damning that even Republicans flinched. You can't fix stupid. It was the LONG list of US Army protests that destroyed Theiu's credibility. Everything that went wrong had been foreseen -- by the US Army. ==== Both the spy and the POL fiasco have been Winstoned down the memory hole. In today's collective history they never happened. When Theiu's ARVN overrode USA advice they cut their own throat. Another great read: Slow Burn.
#5
blert
on
2012-04-08 23:26
The huge mess that was Vietnam can be argued many ways on many particulars. I served with many Nam vets when I was in the army, heard the stories and read the books. My cousin flew more than 100 missions over North Vietnam and he flew in just about every plane in the inventory from spotter planes to thuds. But, I'm not an expert and I won't pretend to be, very much. Very true that most if not all of the battles were won by us. True also that Tet broke the Viet Cong's back. But, we never had a strategy to defeat the north with our air power. Most of the strategic targets were off limits for most of the war. We bombed piles of coal and tried not to breech their dikes. Washington was reportedly concerned that if the bombing was too effective, China and/or Russia might join the conflict directly. So, with a few exceptions, we pussy footed around with our major advantage, air power. Just as we hamstrung ourselves in the air, we never had a winning ground plan either. Unless you guys know better, I am not aware of any plans or intentions to invade the North and bring the war to a firm conclusion. Naturally, I see this as a major problem. As we already experienced in Korea, we can't win if we don't destroy the enemies ability to wage war. And you can't control ground from the air or from a conference table in Washington or Saigon. So, plenty of blame belongs to the generals and plenty belongs to the politicians. Sadly, we are seeing the same kind of nonsense at work right now in Afghanistan. This hearts and minds mantra is crap. War is not a beauty contest. You win by destroying the enemy. Period. It's called fracking war for a reason. When you go to war imagining it to be a beauty contest, you will lose. When you go to war with half your resources being used to lend aid and comfort to the enemy, you lose. When American generals and politicians learn this lesson, we might start winning again.
In the meantime, I would fire half the generals and make the rest of them memorize Clausewitz. Begin with the basics. Thanks for this post coyote, interesting stuff.
#6
W. C. Taqiyya
on
2012-04-09 00:25
Lost track of where I was and thought I was still on the coyote blog. Apologies. Silly me.
#6.1
W. C. Taqiyya
on
2012-04-09 00:34
I was in Saigon in August (and Phnom Penh). Both countries are full of youth who pretty much don't care for Marxism.
It was ironic watching all the young Eurotrash tourists wearing hammer and sickle shirts and paying bucks to bust a few caps on the target range at the Cu chi battle field. Meanwhile the Muslims in Europe are raping their women and marginalizing them in their own lands. I guess its better to play at ideological fantasy than lay down your life for your nation. I don't regret I spent a year in the Iron Triangle,
#7
bill
on
2012-04-09 00:58
"I was in Saigon in August (and Phnom Penh). Both countries are full of youth who pretty much don't care for Marxism."
I was in Saigon and Phnom Penh back in 1994 (two quick stops on my way to Ankor) and that was my impression, too.
#7.1
Agent Cooper
on
2012-04-10 14:20
--interesting read from Boulder Weekly, trying to keep rewrite out of history:
http://archive.boulderweekly.com/080907/thedanishplan.html
#8
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-09 01:30
What I find interesting is that teddy kennedy was part of the scheme to defeat the USA and his brother, JFK. And teddy spent the rest of his life refuting and destroying the lofty ideas his brother pronounced at his inauguration.
Looks like we are repeating history in iraq and afghanistan.
#9
J
on
2012-04-09 09:04
Remember Chris Dodd in a speech to congress saying the Cambodians would be better off under Po lPot? To my amazement, the voters kept reelecting that fool.
#10
Ray
on
2012-04-09 13:04
Dodd --of the party which owns the charge of 'racism'. The unbearable twistedness.
#10.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-09 14:46
I had forgotten about that. Here is what then-Freshman Congressman Chris Dudd [not a typo] said in January 1975.
QUOTE: "The greatest gift our country can give to the Cambodian people is peace, not guns. And the best way to accomplish that goal is by ending military aid now” Peace came to Cambodia, in the form of ~2 million massacred by Pol Pot and his gang.Chris Dudd has a talent for turning gold into dross. His political career is a history of turning a silk purse into a sow's ear. He bears a lot of responsibility for the 2008 debacle.
#10.2
Gringo
on
2012-04-09 16:16
If the courage of politicians matched their military we wouldn't even be talking about this! Not only that I put the blame squarely on democrat politicians, they found another spoke in the wheel of socialism and used it! Republicans allowed them to do this......for some reason we always get the government we deserve! When you don't care enough to get involved.....the slime will oooze in under the door and eat away at the foundation of our Republic. Politicians filled their pockets like mad dogs in a meat market, and Americans went to Disney World!
#11
bartdp
on
2012-04-09 15:00
--no it won't alter your premise to roll the cause & effect sequence backwards away from the election of the 'watergate congress' that could not have done more to create that symbol of the post WWII USA foreign policy, the chopper getting swamped by terrified vietnamese civilian employees on the roof of the US embassy in Saigon, but this book, [url]http://www.bing.com/search?q=rosen+the+strong+man&form=IE8SRC&src=IE-SearchBox[/url] by Fox reporter James Rosen, pretty much shows how it all flowed from 'watergate', and how watergate flowed from presidential aspirant teddy kennedy dropping by WaPo publisher Katherine Graham's private office and cooking up with her the entire media event 'build' that eventually toppled Nixon. The book shows deliberate trap after deliberate trap set to slow-roll the pissant burglary --which teddy could've financed as easily as anybody else, in that half-humorous 'dirty-tricks' era --into the final 'abuse of power' charge that --driven into the ground and broken off at the hilt by the big newspapers --undid the prez (with Nixon's own quirks acting in tandem on the undoing).
Teddy --Camelout --didn't win the presidency, but thanks to his and Graham's initializing the coup d'etat, Jimmy Carter did (Ford had 'pardoned Nixon', costing him a chance at victory), and the five years between the chopper on the roof and the election of Ronald Reagan were an absolute global blood disaster for that Carter idol, "human rights" --not to mention, that's when the current war started, the jihad, for lack of a better term.
#11.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-09 17:51
http://www.bing.com/search?q=rosen+the+strong+man&form=IE8SRC&src=IE-SearchBox
#12
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-09 17:54
PS, forgot to make the point re bartdp's all-too-truthful contention re ultimate responsibility: yes, you are right --but -but but but --where and when have the American people ever had any reason to question the basic love and concern of country and nation in the hearts and minds --and in the advisors and congressional allies --of those that have climbed the long climb into national political power?
#13
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-09 18:03
The war was lost when the U.S. stumbled into Vietnam. The majority of the Vietnamese people supported Ho Chi Minh, so any semblance of self-determination meant that the U.S. was fighting on the wrong side of what was essentially a national civil war.
Eisenhower: "I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the populations would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader" And the Saigon government the U.S. supported was so corrupt that of every dollar spent, half was siphoned off by the enemy. Spending more doesn't help in such a situation. Bruce Kesler: We'd won the war at that point, only to see that and South Vietnam's freedom wasted by the negligence of the US Congress. The Nixon tapes make clear that Nixon and Kissinger were well aware that the war didn’t have a military solution. QUOTE: August 3, 1972: Nixon: because I look at the tide of history out there, South Vietnam probably can never even survive anyway… Nixon: It’s terribly important this year, but can we have a viable foreign policy if a year from now or two years from now, North Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam? That’s the real question. Kissinger: If a year or two years from now North Vietnam gobbles up South Vietnam, we can have a viable foreign policy if it looks as if it’s the result of South Vietnamese incompetence. If we now sell out in such a way that, say, within a three- to four-month period, we have pushed {unclear} Thieu over the brink– we ourselves– I think, there is going to be– even the Chinese won’t like that. I mean, they’ll pay verbal– verbally, they’ll like it– Nixon: But it’ll worry them. Kissinger: But it will worry everybody. And domestically in the long run it won’t help us all that much because our opponents will say we should’ve done it three years ago. Nixon: I know.
#14
Zachriel
on
2012-04-09 20:03
But the war DID have a military solution: the North conquered the South.
Duh.
#14.1
blert
on
2012-04-09 23:13
"The majority of the Vietnamese people supported Ho Chi Minh"
You're so full of crap. Support that contention, would you? With copious links to honesty.
#15
XRay
on
2012-04-09 23:43
In brief, let me try to explicate re: 1954 and 1956:
In Eisenhower's memoir he did say that if an election was held in 1954 that Ho would likely win. But, 1954 was the end of the French reign and the Geneva Accords that seperated Vietnam at the 17th parallel. Ho was popular for ending the French reign. However, during and immediately after WWII, Ho, a former Comintern agent, had killed or sold for bounty from the french almost all non-communist leaders who could challenge him. The United States and South Vietnam refused to sign the Geneva Accords, which scheduled free elections for 1956. Underline "free." By 1956, the movement of 1-million from North to South and the brutality of communist rule in the North and failure of its economic policies had seriously reduced any residual popularity for Ho. The South stated that free elections were not possible in the North. What would have resulted from free elections in 1956? They didn't happen, so conjecture away. Regardless, however, by 1956 the Cold War battle lines were firmly drawn in Asia as in Europe, and measures to avoid further enlargement of communist rule were certainly appropriate. I suggest this relatively brief summary of the period, based on the Pentagon Papers: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pentagon/pent11.htm A quote: President Eisenhower is widely quoted to the effect that in 1954 as many as 80% of the Vietnamese people would have voted for Ho Chi Minh, as the popular hero of their liberation, in an election against Bao Dai. In October 1955, Diem ran against Bao Dai in a referendum and won--by a dubiously overwhelming vote, but he plainly won nevertheless. It is almost certain that by 1956 the proportion which might have voted for Ho--in a free election against Diem--would have been much smaller than 80%. Diem's success in the South had been far greater than anyone could have foreseen, while the North Vietnamese regime had been suffering from food scarcity, and low public morale stemming from inept imitation of Chinese Communism-including a harsh agrarian program that reportedly led to the killing of over 50,000 small-scale "landlords." The North Vietnamese themselves furnished damning descriptions of conditions within the DRV in 1955 and 1956.... By early 1957, partitioned Vietnam was a generally accepted modus vivendi throughout the international community. For instance, in January 1957, the Soviet Union proposed the admission of both the GVN and the DRV to the United Nations, the USSR delegate to the Security Council declaring that "in Vietnam two separate States existed, which differed from one another in political and economic structure Thus, reunification through elections became as remote a prospect in Vietnam as in Korea or Germany. If the political mechanism for reunifying Vietnam in 1956 proved impractical, the blame lies at least in part with the Geneva conferees themselves, who postulated an ideal political settlement incompatible with the physical and psychological dismemberment of Vietnam they themselves undertook in July 1954.
#15.1
Bruce Kesler
on
2012-04-10 00:16
Zachriel: The majority of the Vietnamese people supported Ho Chi Minh
XRay: Support that contention, would you? Eisenhower: "I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, possibly 80 per cent of the populations would have voted for the Communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader" The Vietnamese were promised independence and free elections. Diệm rejected that agreement, and held sham elections in the South. That's the government the U.S. supported, that is, until they turned a blind eye to assassination and coup. The Americans stumbled into Vietnam "armored by good intentions and ignorance.”
#15.2
Zachriel
on
2012-04-10 08:18
"How many of the strapping twenty-year-olds who fought in our country in the late sixties realized that the Americans of a generation before had been helping the French maintain colonial control of our country? How many Americans in Vietnam could really understand that to all of us Ho Chi Minh was, until 1946, a great patriot." — Nguyen Cao Ky, Former Prime Minister of South Vietnam
#15.3
Zachriel
on
2012-04-10 08:20
I'm biased, Zachriel. Plain and simple. Having, during my time in Vietnam, 66-68, met many civilian Vietnamese who knew full well what their future would be like under Ho Chi Minh, and what it turned out to eventually be.
I thank Bruce for his comments on the situation in 54-56, which clarifies a great deal. You're some sort of truth seeker, I guess, in your mind. But why, no matter motivations, you would in any way defend a people being ruled by communism, popularly elected or not... well, that leaves me at a loss. As, given intervening events, the citizens of Vietnam would have been better off under French colonialism than communist rule. For sure, not so many would have died. I still submit you're full of crap, with no grasp of the real world, your chances of being among the "strapping twenty-year-olds" long since departed... while you sat, reading your treatises. Letting others fight your battles.
#15.3.1
XRay
on
2012-04-11 00:07
XRay: I'm biased, Zachriel. Plain and simple. Having, during my time in Vietnam, 66-68, met many civilian Vietnamese who knew full well what their future would be like under Ho Chi Minh, and what it turned out to eventually be.
Yes, as you say, you are biased by your experience which is colored by those you personally associated with, those who fought on your side. While most Vietnamese probably weren't communists, many were anticolonialists who wanted to end foreign involvement, which had included the French, the Japanese, the French again, the Americans, the Chinese. Many were forced into the communist camp because they knew that land reform was going to be necessary after decades of colonialism. XRay: But why, no matter motivations, you would in any way defend a people being ruled by communism, popularly elected or not... well, that leaves me at a loss. It's not your choice, but theirs. People have to find their own way. XRay: As, given intervening events, the citizens of Vietnam would have been better off under French colonialism than communist rule. For sure, not so many would have died. If the French hadn't try to reestablish their colony there, if the U.S. had come out strongly for Vietnamese independence after WWII, things might have been much different. XRay: I still submit you're full of crap, You asked a question. We answered it by providing support from President Eisenhower and the former Prime Minister of South Vietnam. We also pointed out that Nixon and Kissinger knew that the cause was futile, but continued the war anyway for political purposes. Yes, many people died. Millions. Some killed by Americans. Some killed by the Communists.
#15.3.1.1
Zachriel
on
2012-04-11 07:04
..and don't forget SEATO, the South East Asia Treaty Organization --USA was bound by treaty to defend the nation of South Vietnam in the event of attack from a foreign nation. To've abrogated the treaty would've swarmed the commies on what later emerged, as the signal victory of the decade the USA held the military aggression era of SE Asian communism at war in VN, as the (more or less ongoing) free-market economic miracle of the 'Asian Tigers'.
#16
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-10 01:45
--Zach, let's expand your list:
--The Kremlin provided the impetus, money, and weapons for the war --just as in Korea. So, USA was faced with a proxy attack on a vital geopolitical area. Markets, raw materials access, at the time the game was checkers on markets as well as chess on hearts and minds --and poker on 'linkage'. --The Viet Cong began as an NVA sponsored infiltration and subversion, and included years of terrorist attacks on the structure of local politics in the rural area --assassinations of head men, general murder, kidnapping, hostage-taking, and torture/atrocity terror against mayors and councils, teachers and doctors, the civil society of village life in South Vietnam. That's why the mountain people --the Hmong and others, as well as the Mekong Delta farming villages, were all self-fortified against the VC for all but the end phase of the war, when resistance had become futile, both in the field and in the watergate congress of DC --and in the streets of the American cities, where USSR was making a great effort, see the Venona Papers. The ARVN was a pretty good little army, esp below field grade, and fought long and hard for the nation --and created a war record no army not 'of the people' could have come remotely close to achieving.
#17
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-10 10:20
History will record simply that the USA lost in Vietnam. The causes are complex. It will also record a short term military victory in Iraq followed by a loss to the Muslim hordes there. It will record the USA also lost its war in Afghanistan. I am not sure what the USA was doing in Somalia but it lost there too. Libya, mainly through its allies? Lost. Egypt, politically? Lost.
Assad in Syria doesn't look so bad but the USA seems to be backing the Muslim hordes for that one too. Ugly, people, ugly.
#18
thehawkreturns
on
2012-04-10 11:44
For all the great airing-out benefits of our political system, where war-fighting is concerned we have what amounts to a revolution every two years, right on schedule, every other November.
This makes it extremely difficult for us to discourage the other side. The 'other side' now segues from the enemy infantry shooting our troops, to the fringe (and not so fringe) elements of the 'out' party in our elections. As a whole, our politics include a faction offering the enemy hope at the same time time our military is trying to deny them hope. And as the history of human conflict unmistakably teaches, they won't quit as long as there's hope.
#18.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-10 12:38
BK in #15.1 quotes a reference to "...a harsh agrarian program that reportedly led to the killing of over 50,000 small-scale "landlords."
North Vietnam's population at the time was around 25 million. The same level of farmer/owner killing in USA would be more than 12 times higher --say 600,000. The total number of farmers and ranchers working their own land in USA is about 750,000. So, if you're a farmer or rancher working your own land, and some similar sainted little idealists worshipping some current version of Uncle Ho would manage to gain a local monopoly on violence, you and your family would have an 80% chance of being visited by a mob, and somwhere out in your pasture or rice paddy, summarily killed --executed by the new state, chop-chop, no mo yu, adios, sayonara, Harry Badurchi. Good old Uncle Ho! Charisma out the yaya!
#19
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 03:21
BTW, it wasn't 'murder' --it was legal. We in the USA moved a goodly step toward such a state of affairs recently, with the pre-2010 election congress passing of S510:
http://www.bing.com/search?q=s510+food+bill&qs=RQ&form=QBRE&pq=s5+food+bill&sc=1-12&sp=1&sk=
#19.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 03:48
buddy larsen: you and your family would have an 80% chance of being visited by a mob
Um, no. The vast majority of Vietnamese were farmers during that period. Even today, the majority are involved in agriculture.
#19.2
Zachriel
on
2012-04-11 07:08
Zach, if you read more carefully, you'll see that your premise --that i claimed the commies killed 80% of North Vietnam's farmers --is flawed.
The hypothetical was ceteris paribus --a known false assumption made en arguendo. If you wish, i'll rephrase as "If you are one of the 600,000 farmers hypothetically executed in order to equal the percentage of the population represented by the 50,000 executed North Vietnamese farmers, here you would join 80% of your classification, dead in the mud and blood face down in a ditch." Better?
#19.2.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 13:50
buddy larsen: If you are one of the 600,000 farmers hypothetically executed in order to equal the percentage of the population represented by the 50,000 executed North Vietnamese farmers, here you would join 80% of your classification, dead in the mud and blood face down in a ditch.
The 80% represents the percentage of Vietnamese farmers killed, assuming Vietnam was as highly developed as the U.S. — a nonsensical figure. However, we agree that for the fifty thousand, they would be "dead in the mud and blood face down in a ditch", which to the innocent victims is the material fact.
#19.2.1.1
Zachriel
on
2012-04-11 14:39
well, i think we both know we're starting to act silly, on a topic that we shouldn't. But the word 'here' in the snip you've quoted i meant to mean 'here' in the USA.
#19.2.1.1.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 16:07
Buddy, as ever, you are not acting silly, at all, just replying to a silly.
#19.2.1.1.1.1
Bruce Kesler
on
2012-04-11 17:10
Thanks, BK --this thread was good --classic, too, in the argument of those who will never admit that there was anything noble at all in Uncle Sam's part in the war's 'big story'. 'Classic' in that these folks always, always, go away from the big story, and yes it's true, always find lamentably plenty of good enough points in the small stories.
As dumbass as USA sometimes is, it still believes that political systems that shoot their way to power, that then liquidate as 'enemies of the state' some large but not too large discrete group of the nation's citizens, that then commence to attack and subvert neighbors and targets of opportunity while maintaining power via a secret police accountable only to the strong man, whose terror tactics soon create around him a personality cult based on the god-like power of life-and-death, is just not all that wholesome a political system, and should be, if possible, opposed. THAT is the proper point of departure for criticism, even the most bitter and truthful criticism, of the war. NOT that Uncle Ho was a hero at one time, or that his photos make him out a wise and gentle philosopher. "Don't bite the weenie!" as my wise and incontrovertibly oppositional country lawyer always advises. :-)
#19.2.1.1.1.1.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 18:32
(excerpt)
Between 1953 and 1956, the North Vietnamese government instituted various agrarian reforms, including land redistribution. Large landowners and rich peasants were publicly denounced as landlords (địa chủ), and their land distributed to poor and middle peasants, particularly to those with ties to the Communist Party.[6] In some cases there were mass slaughters of landlords. People of the middle- and upper-class, intellectuals, anti-communists, affiliates to the French colonial government and dissidents were also persecuted, imprisoned or killed. Hundreds of thousands of peasants were massacred in Ho Chi Minh's home province of Nghe An, in a peasant revolt against the communist regime's collectivization of farmland across the North.[7] A widespread famine also occurred across North Vietnam throughout the 1950s, due to the regime's mismanagement of collectivized food supplies to the civilian population. Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/north-vietnam#ixzz1riM1zrni === ...and then, as soon as they were able, they headed south, to do the same thing to the neighbors --who happened to be signatory to: http://www.bing.com/search?q=the+seato+treaty&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=the+seato+treaty&sc=1-16&sp=-1&sk=
#20
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 03:34
I guess, Zachriel, what bothers me are statements such as...
"It's not your choice, but theirs. People have to find their own way." Of course there is truth in that statement. But when I think of the tens of millions who have been killed by communist ideologues I'm not given to think those people had any choice at all. It just seems a callous sentiment on your part given the horrendous damage communism has brought to the world. That's why my comment about "truth seeker", as if you see yourself in some high Olympian pose defining what is best for those beneath you. Life reduced to intellectual amorphism instead of sometimes brutal and hard reality.
#21
XRay
on
2012-04-11 18:22
--an individual as such has to see the collective in terms of the individuals in it, but the collective as such has to see that thought as parasitical, from a parasite with a parasite's rights.
You can throw in with either, but you can't throw in with the latter and still hold your own life or loved ones as any more important that any of those faceless hordes impersonally destroyed by implacable history's world-historical movements. Not honestly, anyway.
#21.1
buddy larsen
on
2012-04-11 19:11
XRay: But when I think of the tens of millions who have been killed by communist ideologues I'm not given to think those people had any choice at all.
That's right, which is why supporting colonialism, propping up corrupt governments, undermining neutral countries, accusing anyone who advocates reform of being a communist or subversive, and using the Vietnamese people as pawns, is so destructive.
#21.2
Zachriel
on
2012-04-11 20:09
Zachriel: I think you'll find that your comment -- with the substitution of a few words -- applies more to the communist countries' foreign policies than to that of the US during the Cold War, and today. The US led post WWII in advocating the end of colonialism, and unlike the communism imposed upon contries worked and paid for freer countries to develop. No, we were not perfect, but far better than the alternatives.
You may feel outrage that the US was not perfect, but throughout have failed to consider that the alternatives were worse. What is so destructive, Zachriel, is when such arguments undermine the better alternatives by ignoring the worser, and being unwilling to choose the better side. You are more than wasting space here. You are condoning the waste of lives and freedoms via ignoring the greater evils as you seek to solely focus on the lesser evils.
#21.2.1
Bruce Kesler
on
2012-04-11 20:17
Bruce Kessler: I think you'll find that your comment -- with the substitution of a few words -- applies more to the communist countries' foreign policies than to that of the US during the Cold War, and today.
- After WWII, France reasserted its colonial control of "French Indochina". - The U.S. supplied arms and other assistance to the French in their reassertion of power there. - The international community agreed to elections and unification, but Diệm refused and held his own sham elections winning with more than 98% of the vote. - The U.S. supported Diệm until he became too much of a liability, at which point they turned a blind eye to assassination and coup. - Nixon and Kissinger thought that South Vietnam would most likely fall, but continued the war for political purposes. We have supported each of these claims. That does not mean there is a ready equivalence between what the U.S. did and what other countries have done. As you point out, the U.S. often led on the issue of ending colonialism. Indeed, FDR thought Vietnam should be independent, but he did not survive WWII, and the thought did not survive the onset of the Cold War. Several arguable claims were made and answered. For instance, you blamed the post-Nixon Congress. Well, the fact that Nixon and Kissinger had already determined South Vietnam would likely fall is very relevant to your claim, but you ignored the point, and instead attacked a position we have not expressed and do not hold.
#21.2.1.1
Zachriel
on
2012-04-11 21:07
Zachriel, let's get some facts straight, and in proper context:
1. "After WWII, France reasserted its colonial control of "French Indochina"." -- Yes, they did. And, not with US aid. 2. "The U.S. supplied arms and other assistance to the French in their reassertion of power there." -- It was not until 1949 that the now communist China started heavy flows of arms and supplies to the Vietnamese communists that the US aid to the French countered, as the Cold War heated up. 3. "The international community agreed to elections and unification, but Diệm refused and held his own sham elections winning with more than 98% of the vote." -- That point was dealt with above, #15.1. The sham exit in the Geneva Accords was just that, for the French, leaving behind a divided Vietnam. Diem easily beat Bao Dai, as a nationalist leader. Meanwhile, Ho was causing tens of thousands of deaths in the North as communist control was consolidated. There was never a chance for free elections throughout Vietnam. 4. "The U.S. supported Diệm until he became too much of a liability, at which point they turned a blind eye to assassination and coup." -- I've missed you raising that one yet. Actually, there is substantial evidence that the overthrow of Diem and his killing were reflections of liberal Democrats in D.C., primarily, and some others without much good intel, reacting to communist propaganda re: Buddhists, causing a catastrophe that led to the need for US troops in large numbers. Diem had built a successful administration, although harsh when needed to consolidate the government throughout the country. I suggest you read Mark Moyar's "Triumph Forsaken", which is widely respected history of that time. 5. "Nixon and Kissinger thought that South Vietnam would most likely fall, but continued the war for political purposes." -- Their cynicism or skepticism is known. However, you omit that they expected the US to meet its obligations in supplies and air support, that the Democrat Congress in the wake of Watergate largely cut off. If you read Lewis Sorley's "A Better War" you will find the successes post-'68, that were tossed into the ash heap of suffering in 1975. Our greatest error during that period was building South Vietnamese forces in the US model, heavily dependent on US levels of supplies and logistics and air. I find interesting your use of the imperial "we" in your comment. BTW, as indicator of your reading skills, my last name is Kesler, not Kessler. It's past time for you, the imperial we, to take it elsewhere. The weight of full evidence is overwhelmingly against your '60s anti-Vietnam war version of events and consequences.
#21.2.1.1.1
Bruce Kesler
on
2012-04-11 21:36
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