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Saturday, February 12. 2011

To understand America...

You need to understand the meaning of the Gettysburg Address: Vanderleun

Posted by Bird Dog at 10:30 | Comments (18) | Trackbacks (0)

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To understand Lincoln is difficult from his writings and speeches.

From Abe's First Inaugural;

Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that—

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres31.html

His credo of lies remains his own.

#1 Leag on 2011-02-12 15:00 (Reply)

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Before the war, he didn't, and he didn't, and he didn't. Once the war started, well....

Three full biographies of Lincoln, several partial biographies, and two volumes of his speeches and writings: they are all in my possession, and I've read them all, at least once, quite thoroughly. (Just to forestall some lame quip about what I was taught in grade school.)

Lincoln was a complex man, full of subtle thoughts and nuanced feelings; naturally, some find him to be confusing. The fault, fortunately, does not lie with Lincoln.

#1.1 ELC (Link) on 2011-02-12 21:21 (Reply)

Meself finds Abe no more confusing than Barry.

Liars both but not confusing.

#1.1.1 Leag on 2011-02-14 13:04 (Reply)

LOL. I'm outta this one: I've learned not too waste much time trying to talk sense to a brick wall. You have a good day now, ya hear? :)

#1.1.1.1 ELC (Link) on 2011-02-16 09:34 (Reply)

Oh, for God's sake Leag ... There are lies, and then there are opinions. You should know. You're full of both. Lincoln was faced with an incredibly complex situation which, being the honest man he was, he was struggling to resolve in the best way possible. Smart people, who are also humble, know that they must struggle to make the correct decisions, some of which they must, in the fullness of time, alter to fit the changing circumstances. Looking at that wasted, melancholy man in the picture above. you can see the price he paid for both, before he paid the ultimate price of his life, when he was assassinated.

Grow up.

Marianne

#2 Marianne Matthews on 2011-02-12 16:43 (Reply)

Marianne,
For a start you might consider reading: LINCOLN UNMASKED
by Thomas DiLorenzo

You might actually learn something other than the propaganda pitched in grade schools.

#2.1 Kevin on 2011-02-12 20:01 (Reply)

The photograph is from May 7, 1858, more than two years before he was elected president. (That was the day he got "Duff" Armstrong acquitted of murder, in the famous "Almanac Trial".)

Here is the last known studio portrait of Lincoln, February 5, 1865.

http://www.shorpy.com/Abraham-Lincoln-1865

#2.2 ELC (Link) on 2011-02-12 21:33 (Reply)

Missy Mariamme, Abe's march to Gehenna sent many, many free Americans who stood for right to early graves.

For them i have considerable regard but not him.

Have yall figgered out what nescience is yet, girl?

#2.3 Leag on 2011-02-14 13:19 (Reply)

Has nothing to do with credo but an interesting piece from the WaTimes the other day.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/feb/9/book-lincoln-sought-to-deport-freed-slaves/

#3 feeblemind on 2011-02-12 17:17 (Reply)

I am the offspring of a North-South marriage and have more or less equally split my time between North and South. I had family on both sides of the conflict. Among the family members who died in the conflict about slavery -which includes the Civil War- were a Confederate Colonel whose father according to family lore was the biggest slave owner in the county, and one of John Brown's men at Harper's Ferry. Like I said, both sides.

I have read extensively on the Civil War and on the events leading up to it, well past "propaganda pitched in grade schools." What has been pitched in grade schools and high schools about the Civil War has often differed according to what part of the country one lived in.

Perhaps one difference in my upbringing compared to some posters here is that my mother informed me that having had relatives re-fight the Civil War throughout her childhood, she decided she wasn't going to continue re-fighting the Civil War. So, I was not witness during my childhood to re-fighting the Civil War. Just read about it. Though in her 80s my grandmother recorded a bunch of her stories, including one story about Union soldiers and my great grandmother. Not surprisingly, the Union soldiers were not kindly regarded.

At this stage in the game, I doubt that I am going to convince people who disagree with me about the Civil War to change their minds. I am accordingly not going to try.

#4 Gringo on 2011-02-12 20:42 (Reply)

Garry Wills, Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words That Remade America should be a standard read for anyone interested in this topic.

#5 Wirraway on 2011-02-12 21:57 (Reply)

Kevin ... Do you always try to convince people by insulting them? How's that working for you? I am a Northerner married to a fifth generation Southerner and in the course of my 82 years I have read quite a few books about Lincoln and the War Between the States.

But I don't see where that matters here. The point I was making in my post to Leag is that an opinion is not a lie. It's the best conclusion one can reach at a point in time from the evidence presented. The more complicated the situation, the more difficult the decision. And as new evidence comes in, an honest man can change his opinion to fit the newly discovered evidence.

If you have never changed your opinion on anything, when new evidence turned up, I feel sorry for you. You must have made a lot of mistakes in your short life.

Marianne

#6 Marianne Matthews on 2011-02-12 23:20 (Reply)

Telling someone to grow up could never be construed as trying to insult them?

Not that I need to run to the defense of any other commenter here.

#6.1 Kevin on 2011-02-13 07:44 (Reply)

As my son would say, Marianne, you go gal!!!

As one whose father's side immigrated to Wisconsin in the late 1800's (Swiss and Norwegian) and mother's side has been here FOREVER and is a virtual stew pot, I heard lots of family histories from starkly different viewpoints. My Texas crew suggest that the Northerners blockading New Orleans and other such ports to prevent the sale of cotton to the British (v. the Northern factories) was what got their dander up. They had a few slaves but lots of free Blacks and Indians who road the range for them and worked the fields WITH them. After the Civil War everything just went on as usual because their "freed" slaves had no place to go and had good jobs, housing, good food, education, cloth for nice clothes, music, etc. They got their own plot of land, which my relatives had done anyway when someone started a family, and had skills such as weaving, saddle making, etc. that let them lead independent and important lives within the community.

I am not making any excuse for slavery, but I know that a few families in Rhode Island continued that triangle long after Lincoln abolished slavery in the South; they just shifted it to the Caribbean and points south. Look up the DeWolf/DeWolfe (sp) family and documentary.

As one uncovers new information, one does change one's opinion. That's why Maggies is a good place to be.

#6.2 jma on 2011-02-13 16:07 (Reply)

Years ago I met someone with a slave ancestor who had escaped slavery from TX, but had returned to TX to live after the end of the Civil War. While TX was where he had been enslaved, it was also where his family was.

#6.2.1 Gringo on 2011-02-13 17:11 (Reply)

So, Abe wasn't just a liar but a thief and that yall ascribe to his gettin' new facts.

Yall are a bundle of fun, Mam.

Me thinks i'll touch the sky.

#6.3 Leag on 2011-02-14 13:31 (Reply)

Sorry if this is slightly off topic but as a soldier in the British Army, during the 1970s, any man with the the surname of Lincoln was known as Abe. Why would that be, other than the obvious? why did the British still in the 1970s remember his name and who he was?

#7 Ron1954 on 2011-02-13 13:55 (Reply)

Jefferson Davis Inauguration SesquiCentennial

Sat. - February 19, 2011 - Montgomery, AL

http://www.confederate150.com/2011.html

#8 Leag on 2011-02-18 13:43 (Reply)

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Saturday, February 12. 2011

To understand America...