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Thursday, August 19. 2010Thursday morning links1:30 am. Sorry, no morning links today. I played hooky all day by romping up to Miami Beach for a fish fry. At the end of my heavily philosophical journey, I could only utter two fateful words: Cuban girls. Growing up in California, I always thought Mexican girls were hot, but Cuban girls really have that 'something extra' about them. Maybe it's the dark eyebrows. Either way, it was you guys or the dark eyebrows, and it's obvious who won. I do have one interesting note about languages. My buddy is Cuban, been here 20 years, and he says that Spanish has variations that are just as wild as English. Like the way a Yankee might have a hard time understanding a native Alabaman and vice versa, and neither would be able to understand one Irish or Cockney word in ten from the guy on the next bar stool. Likewise, in Spanish, he says he can't understand one word in ten from the Argentinian kid next door. He told me, and I kid you not, "It's all Greek to me." Trackbacks
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Give me a Cuban girl and a Cuban cigar ... and, well, the possibilities are endless.
It's true about the Spanish. I started learning Spanish in Spain, then had it again when we lived in Panama, then took Spanish in college (in Texas).
When I moved to Chile, I could not understand the Spanish. I thought it was me until I went on vacation to Peru, where I understood every word they said. That was when I realized that it wasn't I who spoke bad Spanish, it was the Chileans. I've always heard that Chilean is the most "out there" of Spanish dialects.
Interesting, GD. I'll have to ask my buddy if it's a "north-south" thing. I note the guy he has problems with is from Argentina, and you mention Chile, both of which are southern. Yet you say Peruvians were no problem, and my buddy married an Ecuadorian and can understand her no problem, and both of those are far to the north. So, like the U.S., there seems to be some demographic aspect at play.
When I was teaching English in Japan I had a friend who was doing the same in the midst of his "reading" Japanese at a British University. One night he started speaking Japanese with a full-on Cockney accent and one of the Japanese there, a woman who spoke very good English herself, turned to me and asked, "What did he say?"
I replied, "I don't know. It was Japanese." To which she said, genuinely perplexed, "No it's not." We had some friends from Puerto Rico, Cuba and Mexico. When we got together in a group, they couldn't understand each other's Spanish, so everyone just spoke English.
Great story. I said the exact same thing about that Cockney guy sitting next to me on the bar stool last night. In a way, it's pretty amazing. You'd think there'd only be so many ways a simple letter could be pronounced, yet just look at the results.
Speaking of learning langauges, I once read something that made a lot of sense. You have an instructor who is fluent in the language, and from the first "See Spot, see Spot run", you're made to pronounce every single word exactly correct without a trace of accent. Put a little Western accent on it, you stop and start all over. I like that idea. It also noted that you definitely want an instructor of the same gender, however tempting it would be to have otherwise. We're a little close to see it, but every language has scads of 'mannerisms' that are gender-specific. If some big burly Russian guy, freshly arrived in the U.S., comes walking up to your wife in a restaurant and says, "Oh, I just love that dress!", we know he had the wrong instructor. Books teaching Spanish have to have specifications in them WHICH Spanish they're teaching, the regional differences are that large and go way beyond a few different words and spellings.
Apart from Merkins and Indiuns mispronouncing a lot of the Queen's language, they're still at least trying to speak it reasonably well. Same can't be said about south Americans trying to speak the language of the old country. Likewise, in Spanish, he says he can't understand one word in ten from the Argentinian kid next door. He told me, and I kid you not, "It's all Greek to me."
It all depends on your perspective. When I hear Argentine Spanish, with its Italianate lilt - not surprising because half of Argentina is of Italian ancestry- and the second person Vos grammar used in Argentina, I think to myself, “Now I am in my comfort zone.” The Caribbean accent of Cuba and Venezuela, which I see as the Noo Yawk version of Spanish, with its fast cadence and missing d's and s's, is not my cup of tea. Yerba mate, by contrast, is my daily cup of tea- literally. At the same time, my Spanish has some commonalities with Caribbean Spanish, a.k.a. Trade Route Spanish, as I usually eat d’s in participles. [have looked: hemos buscado: hemos busca’o.] I second gold digger that Peruvian Spanish is easier to understand than Chilean Spanish. Chilean Spanish is very fast. I suspect that Dr. M’s Cuban friend would find Spanish spoken in Chile more compatible than the Argentine version. I love hearing Argentine Spanish, but Chilean and Caribbean Spanish grate on my ears. While I understand what former Chilean President Bachelet says, it sounds to me as if she is talking with cotton in her mouth. The following countries have more standard Spanish pronunciation and/or slower cadence, and are easier to understand for non-native speakers: Mexico, Central America with the exception of Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay. The following are more difficult, due to speed: Panama, Venezuela, Caribbean islands, Chile. Argentina: I found it easy, but admit that its unique slang can be a challenge. Women are easier to understand than men. BTW, one response to Spanish speakers in TX to an accent they do not understand is to reply that you are speaking Chinese. [habla chino]. Regarding people from Mexico, Cuba, and Puerto Rico preferring to speak in English: this may not be a case of not understanding but of comfort level. I have worked with a Peruvian engineer whose English is very accented. I prefer to speak with her in Spanish, not because her English is poor- take away the accent and her sentences are very well constructed- but because I am more comfortable hearing Spanish instead of hearing English in a foreign accent. [She has an MS from a US university, so she knows English.] Similarly, I suspect that people from Mexico, Cuba, and Puerto Rico prefer speaking in English because their English will sound about the same, but they don’t like hearing a different accent of their native language. BTW, Cuban and Puerto Rican accents are pretty similar: Caribbean/Trade Routes Spanish. While there are differences in Spanish from Nuevo Laredo to Tierra del Fuego to Madrid, you can make yourself understood. There are also English language accents that are hard for us to understand: Cockney English, English from Northern England and some parts of Scotland, rural Trinidad and Jamaica. Not to mention Indian and African English. When I was working in Trinidad, I gave a ride to someone in the countryside. I understood about every fifth word. By contrast, I had no trouble understanding the Trinis from the towns and cities. I worked with a Scotsman who informed me that while I found him difficult to understand, most Englishmen also found the accent from his part of Scotland difficult to understand. Yes there are grammar and vocabulary differences. The grammar differences are fairly simple: some countries use Vos instead of Tu for second singular. I find Vos easier, as it has fewer exceptions. Spain uses a second plural that isn’t used elsewhere. Off the top of my head I can think of five different words for “blonde.” This is more an issue for slang. Recall that there are also differences between British and American vocabulary: such as hood versus bonnet. The Royal Academy is an attempt to standardize Spanish. We have no such equivalent for English. One result is that over time, English is more fluid than Spanish. I daresay that a Spaniard or Mexican of the 21st century would find it easier to understand a Spaniard or Mexican of the 19th century than an 21st century American could understand a 19th century American. Regarding translation: Once in Argentina I was asked to translate a rock song. Upon hearing it, my reply was that I had no idea what they were saying in English. Another time, after I translated the song, I got the reply that she had liked the song until she heard the translation. I enjoyed BlogDog's tale about Cockney-accented Japanese. Best looking women: my vote is for the Cambas of Santa Cruz, Bolivia. Often with green eyes. I like what you said about 19th and 21st centuries. James Burke once made the point in his 'Universe' series. It was a reenactment of a Salem witch trial using language of the day, and you couldn't understand one word in ten. And certainly not the context.
"You say the black rooster crowed three times, Farmer Johanson?" "Yes, sire." "Well, that's different!" "BURN HER!!" But pretty much any other language? Yeah, I can see them linking up across the centuries. Certainly the Asian and Romance languages. Russian, probably not. German might be iffy because it's heavy with dialect. When it comes to "how far back you can go", I suppose Mandarin would win that one, hands down. |