|
Maggie's FarmWe are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for. |
Our Recent Essays Behind the Front Page
Categories
QuicksearchLinks
Blog Administration |
Wednesday, September 16. 2009Living with Borderline and Narcissistic WomenRescuing types, and loyal, good-hearted - if somewhat tolerant and often obsessional Boy Scout types of guys are often attracted to Borderline and Narcissistic women. These gals are often sexy, smart, exciting and romantic, and will idealize a fellow - until they don't anymore. That's when the s hits the f, and their hero begins to look like either a monster or a poisonous worm to them. They split, project, and externalize in order to maintain some sort of acceptable and coherent sense of themselves. Broken and destructive people with lots of anger, through no fault of their own. Bad genes, bad life, bad luck, or whatever. From Dr. Helen's post, her excellent interview with the author of Walking on Eggshells: Advice on how to cope with the Borderline in your life. One of the most common consultations I see with men is about marriages with women with significant personality disorders. My usual first impulse is to say "Save yourself." My second is to want them to not take any sh-t from them. Then things get more complicated - especially when there are young kids. My general advice to young men: Feel free to date them, but do not marry a Borderline or pathologically Narcissistic woman, unless you plan on its being only a temporary connection, because they will crush you and your spirit (unless they get good help - and learn to love instead of to idealize and split, destroy, and hate. It is tough, though, for anybody to acknowledge their grievous flaws). Thanks to Dr. H for this good and useful (I will use it) video. Borderline men are a whole different topic, which I will not get into now.
Posted by Dr. Joy Bliss
in Our Essays, Psychology, and Dr. Bliss
at
12:40
| Comments (24)
| Trackbacks (0)
Trackbacks
Trackback specific URI for this entry
No Trackbacks
Comments
Display comments as
(Linear | Threaded)
Oh, come on, Dr. Bliss ... Why won't you discuss Borderline men? That would be really helpful, especially if one suspects that one has one of those in the family. How does one deal with this kind of problem, without being trampled underfoot by it?
Marianne Oh, Marianne, why don't you just put "he" in the place of "she"? A borderline is a borderline, no matter what sex. Having said this, more than 2/3 of borderlines are women--this is just the way it is (just like 2/3 of physical abusive people are men).
Why would be refer to men when we are speaking about a predominately woman personality disorder? Marianne,
the article is about BORDERLINE/NPD WOMEN ! I suspect you have some issues in this area yourself if you're attacking the columnist... jesus... when do WOMEN just stop acting like they're above the law, above mental disorders, above the crimes they commit every single day... Its helpful to all of society to recognize that FEMALES ABUSE, MURDER, RAPE, STEAL, DO DRUGS, ARE PROSTITUTES... and that people are educated about these women !! For far too many foolish years, the MEDIA has created illusory images of narcissistic females being "okay and the norm".. and its repulsive.. to where you've got young girls acting like lesbians, so out of touch with what men desire in females, and feminism so out of control, that most men are simply disgusted by the average female in this country. Men are finally grasping the big picture. Its up to men to fix the problems women create, thats never going to change. Its been that way since the dawn of time... So let the MAN speak ! My brother married one of these women. "Save yourself" is the best advice you can give, and the best advice to take if you're one of these men. He didn't have the cojones to take the advice, and wasted 20 years of his life with that creature. Codependence is an ugly, pathetic thing.
your brother has plenty of company, LaurieK --guys with memories of cold sweat and free-fall stomachs.
Rescuing types, and loyal, good-hearted - yep.
sexy, smart, exciting and romantic - yep. idealize a fellow - until they don't anymore - yep. After that, living hell. "Walking on eggshells" is the perfect metaphor. The only way not to lose big is to not play at all - just shut down. Guys, it looks like fun. It will be for a while. It's not worth it. (Now very happily married for 15 years.) Dr B. Please also comment on Narcissistic men. I was married for 20 years to a man my counselor suggested to me was a Narcissist.
Go watch the video. At the site, there is one about BPD men.
(Embarrassing.... for the links to the other videos, they call it "Boarderline..."] Good video for sure. Watch it if you think you live with one. ` borderline
boarderline bored or lyin bored her lion Bortle Ion have found that term thrown around a lot and not so easily diagnosed. most women i have met with that diagnosis were bipolar types who were in bad domestic situations with way too many family obligations but i digress. interesting comment and a very BAD disorder for any gender.
Opie,
You are exactly right. I talked to a shrink once and asked him about BPD. He kind of laughed and said, "It's the diagnosis you put on a patient to let other shrinks know not to accept them as patients." They are screwed-up and obstreperous for so many different reasons that, he said, sometimes the label becomes generic for these recalcitrant patients. He did not, however, dismiss the seriousness of those who fall at that end of the continuum, but he did say they often were such difficult patients shrinks despaired of them and recommended them to someone else. (Usually another shrink they didn't like.) Another way to put it would be to use the words above: Shrinks, Save yourselves. I noticed the doctor in the video recommend to those men who wished to stay in a relationship, usually co-dependent, to make a list of rules, methods of how to live. My first thought was that's not living. Sad stuff. ` like all mental disorders, they are all bad even if you do get a shrink that can help. in the end, one has to deal with the sh## thrown at them in this life and find a way to muddle through if one can hang on long enough.
hey, look up the profile of a malignant narcissist
and see what high profile MALE national politician comes to mind Yep - the Boy Scout and the impulsive sexual girl.
Getting divorced from one right now. She just decided to up and leave me for her boss. She bought a book for her to learn how I FELT about our marriage breaking up! She has no emotion about it. Her borderline/narcissistic mother (who beat her as child/teenager) was worried that my wife had no emotional response about this divorce. Two of her siblings are substance abusers. One of them is psychopathic and tends to be jailed a lot. After separating, I feel SO MUCH BETTER! I don't want to ride this crazy train anymore! Her previous ex-husband congratulated me on not having to deal with the mother-in-law any more and warned me to get ready for a bumpy divorce. I'm going though a 12-step program now to examine my life and to recover from what I've been through. Mike,
i'll bet, before you married her, her family was --in the back of your mind --insurance that your bride, having seen all those bad effects of wrong thinking, would always be steady and reasonable and down-to-earth and loveable. Right? (i coulda written your letter --even the details, about 95%) Anyway, time will help. One great thing is she'll make you hate her --so you won't have to lose a loved one for very long --just a court document or two will do it for you. keep your chin up! "Her previous ex-husband..." Yikes!!!
An ex-husband (and a dysfuntional family) Two big tip-offs... Men aren't the only ones who "rescue." How many nice women have thought that they could rescue a man from alcohol, drugs, etc.? How many teenage girls have become pregnant by their "bad boy" boyfriends? OR take abuse from them? How many marry such a fellow? Sorry for the redundancy. Should just be "former husband".
Update...... I'm now divorced and have been going to a great 12-step program. Can't afford therapy quite yet as I've lost a bit of money to the divorce process. Small price to pay for sanity and happiness. Healing is progressing and all my friends and family are relieved that this marriage is over. They've been very supportive of me. I'm sorry to lose some friends due to that their wife(s) are close friends with my ex. Also, I got a text from her son that seems to indicate that she is going to soon marry the guy that she has been living with since the Summer. I figured this was going to happen VERY soon after our divorce. Looks like it's true. Thanks for all the comments here. I really appreciate all the insight. What I find fascinating in treating couples in which one or both partners have BPD, is that with patience and coaching it isn't all that hard to talk them down.
You do have to know what's going on (Randi Kreger's book is excellent, but knowing dialectical behavioral therapy is still essential) and you have to know how to respond in a way that is patient and loving. The loving thing is what is almost always missing in these frustrating relationships because impulsive behaviors are so incredibly annoying. They wear the other partner down, and certainly therapists. Therapists are much better at it than partners, validating the content of an argument without necessarily agreeing, the essence of empathy. But until a partner does this, (or a therapist taking that call), takes the time to listen, to unravel what the crisis is about, there's no getting through. It's so time consuming that you wonder, is it worth it? But when they get well, when people with BPD catch themselves and go, "Oh, I see. I'm not seeing any gray here," you haven't lived. You have to feel sorry for the kids - they grow up having no idea what genuine human relations are like. There is an all-pervasive sense of helplessness, impermanence and fear that someone somewhere in their vicinity will instantly change from an angel to a devil, and that constant precautions must be taken to prevent this from happening or, if not possible, to insulate oneself from the impending storm.
So the kids learn is to duck inward or to flee whenever, without warning, a certain facial expression flits across momma's face or when she assumes a certain physical attitude or when her voice unaccountably changes its timbre. There are no specific triggers for the change, or more exactly, anything could be a trigger, for the verbally or physically violent explosion that follows. Helluva way to live... Hello. I love this pagagraph. Would you mind if I use it sometie (not sure when or where, but I like to collect things).
Randi Kreger 17 years of marriage, 3 kids later, the ebb and flow of my wife's moods has washed away all the scree and the hard iron core inside me is exposed. I am better for it. I haven't enjoyed it. Self taught anger management.
What do I have? The ability to enjoy the moment- and to focus on myself, patience, peace (inner), strength, confidence. My children. Plus another kid, 40 years old. I really love the child in her (metaphorically speaking you scum). What's missing? A partner that understands me completely, or enough to love me like I love her. My innocence is missing. My screwed-up growing-up is getting fixed, by me, bit by bit. The kids are the most important, and for them, I have to be a rock and have learned that I can love myself (okay, that way too you scum) and this woman, and at the same time not accept her reality. Both of us are getting older, she's probably learning too, bit by bit. But as time goes by, my inner peace is permeating the environment and blunting the fire she throws on a lunar schedule. Things are smoother. Still I say, 13 and out. (my youngest is 5) You have to be a saint,.. it is increible what you have put yourself in and still do... you already won in life by sacrificing one of the most important loves in life...one to a partner in love,.. you know she cannot love,. only her cats and dogs,. and you must love her like one loves a subhuman or a dementia patient,.. or the coldest and meanest prostitute,. now you are damaged but will grow to know only a saint can love this subhuman and we are not saints,.. we can strive. And this experience will make you better after you let her go,.. she will call you but just for her egocentric calculation of you. You know that. I had to suffer two of this types of woman in my twenties and beyond,.. speaks of me more... and had to look in me and find my pieces all through the labyrinth of the mind and the mystical... and found I could accept the existencial, instinctual, rational, egotistical predicament of our spieces... gracias a Dios,... good night to the planet,. good morning to the universe. good ride this life, really. I could not save her,. invite her to walk the labyrinth,.. so I choose to leave the demented woman naked in the streets to her luck.. what else could I do? Just pray for the subhumans... she was always walking the streets dementially,. and she had fun many times.. and she has all the right after all.. she has no original fault,.. and little chance to see her defects or be honest with herself.. it is dificult for the rest of us too. Nice predicament no? this labyrinth.. hope you find the beauty of it. bye.
A lot of the crazy-making behavior has got to be just plain old laziness --a failure to see the plain truth that we are each local temporary accidents of smart mud that the universe just can't reasonably exist for the purpose of thwarting.
Only in remembering that a very small handful of years from now one will be gone and forgotten, and nobody for the rest of time will ever know or care that one ever existed, can one escape being the center of the universe under attack by evil shapeshifters trying to take one's position. A study recently came out purporting to show that American women have been getting steadily more UNHAPPY over the last 40 years. Dr Bliss, I'm wondering if this intuitively feels right to you.
I suspect this great unhappiness, if it really exists, is largely among high-income and highly educated women. Certainly, there seem to be quite a few upper-middle-class women who are so angry and so unhappy that it seems no human could be angrier & more miserable, maybe not even the burka-clad women of Saudi Arabia. It is a horrible shame that professional psy doc's lump all BPD into one bucket and want to throw the whole lot out.
Isn't there even one of us who are "worth" saving? Date them but save yourself?? Even in a joking tone is insulting. Crush a significant other AND their spirit?? What about my crushed spirit? So you just write me off and you don't even know me? I guess I'm thrilled I have a more ethical doc - that it hasn't been a burden and cross to bear treating me and my condition - I'll make sure I let her know how blessed I am. This type of bashing is shameful - worse than racism. Shame on all of you. Maybe you should consider the people YOU have hurt, confused and manipulated. Get over yourself and your blatant over inflated sense of self importance and entitlement and learn how to carry your own pain.
wendy my heart goes out to you however the experience i've had with my ex-girlfriend i ended up getting arrested for no reason only because i had caught her in one of her lies and so she became so enraged that the only way out for was to get me arrested and all her declaration to the cops were a bunch of lies,beginning with the fact that i had been harrassing her since april the 1st, that i threatened her life;that i had guns that my supposedly criminal friends had left with me the time they would be inside etc.etc....arrest was on june 5th,2011 and still today i can say that I feel for her cause i know that she has a disorder but i can't speak to her cause conditions that i need to respect...so no we shouldn't condemn all bpd but it is very difficult to deal with them........
A HURT SOUL. People used to warn their children about at least seven issues regarding relationships.
(1) When you marry the person; you marry the family. (2) The daughter turns out to be a lot like her Mum. AND The way a man treats his mother, sisters (and other female relatives are treated in his family) is the way he will treat his wife/girlfriend. (3) Women often choose men whose traits are similar to their father's personality types. AND Men often choose women who are similar to their mothers. (4) Being "in love" with someone and "loving" someone are two different things. Being "in love" often is just being "in lust" or "chemistry," or "madness" (folly)...or whatever you want to call it. (5) "First the ring and then the 'thing'." OR "Why should he buy the cow; when the milk is free"? (Don't be used or a user.) (6) "Cooking lasts--Kissing Don't" In other words look for a woman who would make a good wife and mother... a person with a nuturing, caring personality. (7) "If he has a job now...He'll have a job later." In other words look for a man who is not afraid to work hard...at whatever he does. He's the guy who will have the initiative and ability to support a family. The above may be stereotypes but like most folk-wisdom; it has a ring of truth to it. If nothing else, the ideas reflect a common sense approach to relationships. Mankind's knowledge has outdistanced his common sense. True wisdom by individuals is rare; but common sense should be universal. I beieve I have BPD or it may be from the dosage of steroids I'm on for lupus, if it's over 20 mg God Help You if you piss me off.
My husband is a narcisist and an Italian from NJ. We have a 17 yr age difference, he's 76 I'm 59. We've been married 21 yrs & have a 20 yr old son. It's been like a "smack down" @ our house for many yrs. I'd love to resolve this before I die !!! Yes I aggree it is best to get smart no the warning signs and don't be abused. I just dated a woman my therapists says probably has NPD. I am glad she dumped me! The moment I started drawing better and better boundaries was when she felt she wasn't getting enough "attention" narcissistic supply. If she did not dump me I would still be in denial, co-dependent. I think my tolerance is a good thing but if the person refuses to grow with you and when "you" are always the "problem" and the other person is "perfect" and can never possibly be at fault, and exploits you financially and for constant attention something is seriously wrong. The issue for me is not merely tolerance, it is that I empathize with her, and still do, but I can no longer afford to after she lied, manipulated, and deceived. And yet I still empathize because it is truly sad. But I learned just because she is ill doesn't mean I have to be ill with her. God bless her, she needs a blessing greater than any human can give.
|

