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Wednesday, January 16. 2008

For Free Trade

Landsberg on free trade in the NYT, a quote:

Bullying and protectionism have a lot in common. They both use force (either directly or through the power of the law) to enrich someone else at your involuntary expense. If you’re forced to pay $20 an hour to an American for goods you could have bought from a Mexican for $5 an hour, you’re being extorted. When a free trade agreement allows you to buy from the Mexican after all, rejoice in your liberation — even if Mr. McCain, Mr. Romney and the rest of the presidential candidates don’t want you to.

It has always struck me as contradictory that the Left, with its internationalist bent bred of Marx's "international socialism," contains so much in the way of a nationalist-protectionist bias (although Clinton did not have this bias - to his credit).

I guess it's really just pandering to the unions and to the resentful - and to hell with the consumers. As Landsberg notes, everybody benefits from free trade of goods or labor, whether it's town to town, state to state, or country to country.

Posted by The Barrister in Politics at 09:07 | Comments (48) | Trackbacks (0)

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Nice try Barrister at trying to cloak the entire free trade argument under one umbrella.

For my part it is the lack of child labor laws, the use of slave labor, etc. that trump your "extortion" ululations about paying Americans $20 for an item you could by for half that.

Sure you can do that, and in Bangkok you can rent a twelve year old prostitute, boy or girl, for a dime.

So you want cheap? Just look the other way while nations like China use slaves and shackle their populations.

Adam Smith is turning in his grave. Please reread his edition that preceeded The Wealth of Nations. It was entitled"The Theory of Moral Sentiments"
#1 Habu on 2008-01-16 09:29 (Reply)
That's the other side of the argument. However, there is no free lunch.
#1.1 The B. on 2008-01-16 09:31 (Reply)
That's my boy -- Huey P. Habu !
#1.2 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 12:05 (Reply)
Every Man A King !
#1.2.1 Habu on 2008-01-16 12:27 (Reply)
A Chicken in Every Pot!
#1.2.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 12:31 (Reply)
Habu your description sounds much like life for the first hundred or more years of the industrial revolution, though I see your point. But it has taken us all these years to achieve what we have. We can only stand as example, and work to raise standards for all. I suspect the 'price' differential will always be there, as we won't be standing still ourselves.
#2 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 12:54 (Reply)
I must admit to being more than a bit schizophrenic on this entire mankind thing.

My point today was that we have a certain moral obligation to not subsidize governments that enslave their populations and dump their products on our markets, costing us millions of jobs. That's not free trade.

On the other hand I think that same moral obligation guides us to war against philosophies, such as Islam, that preach death to us. I never had any misgivings about killing the enemy and still don't. In fact I always found it satisfying to kill some heathen bastard who would do the same to me.

BTW..I hope your year is going well and that it remains that way. H.
#2.1 Habu on 2008-01-16 14:13 (Reply)
''I must admit to being more than a bit schizophrenic on this entire mankind thing''

LOL -- habu, if you got any drier, you'd aolianate.
#2.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 15:10 (Reply)
aeolianate
#2.1.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 15:13 (Reply)
Buddy,

Unable to locate word to see what I am ...
#2.1.1.1.1 Habu on 2008-01-16 17:30 (Reply)
''...if you got any drier, you'd become an airborne particulate of earth material, such as dust."

From "aeolian". All erosion (and reciprocal sedimentary deposition) is fluvial, aeolian, or some other things i cain't recall. Fluvial is water-driven, and aeolian is wind-driven. Geology class i took way back when the geology was much friggin newer.
#2.1.1.1.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 19:08 (Reply)
"a bit schizophrenic on this entire mankind thing"... hahaha.

That makes two of us at minimum.

That is a tricky wicket... your first point... don't trade and millions die. An inevitable result of seriously closed trade/borders I think. Do trade and support that which we abhor. Yep, I agree, a schizophrenic response is required.

Your second point goes without saying...

Well let's just say that the year is going... change is always good, right? Hope that you and your's are fairing well.
#2.1.2 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 15:13 (Reply)
"a bit schizophrenic on this entire mankind thing"

"a bit schizophrenic on this entire mankind thing"... hahaha."

Okay, we proved our point about schizo -- which one of us is you ?
#2.1.2.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 17:05 (Reply)
haw haw... :)
#2.1.2.1.1 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 18:52 (Reply)
I believe it is the "Free" part the Left has a problem with in general.
#3 NJSoldier on 2008-01-16 13:18 (Reply)
let's not write off Rudy just yet -- here is where he would shine:

http://instapundit.com/archives2/014170.php
#4 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 13:45 (Reply)
Re: how respective presidential candidates would deal with the vast federal bureaucracy

How MorMitt would deal with bureaucracy would be a shiney grin and his surreptitious lieing.

He's a top down manager deluxe, after all.

Bureacracy will love him because he's a phoney, call me anytime, kinda guy.

To wit, I'm gonna save Mighigan because me daddy blasted off from your hides' dirt with his wives to a not out of the way planet.

It works well in rambler economies.

Fred will do what conservative presidents are suppose to do, much like Reagan did, only better by quanta; speak truth to enemies and friends, alike.

Do you Know why I like Mitt Romney?
#4.1 Leag on 2008-01-16 14:36 (Reply)
No, but I'm sure you'll tell me -- again.
#4.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 15:08 (Reply)
Well, pay attention this time.

Because he looks so sweet without his street clothes on.

Translate: he's a lousy liar.

Sarge use t'say, "Pivit! Wahdat glass on yer nose? Woo said ya could fall out wit dem? Ya blin'r'wat?

Me'd reply, "Gummint issue to block da glare from y'all's bald haid, sourgent, sir."

Him'd fumishly reply. "Im no sir, pivit. Unnerstan?"

"Quite rightly, mam."
#4.1.1.1 Leag on 2008-01-16 16:26 (Reply)
Well, that's such a precise, persuasive and crystal clear political argument, I don't know how I could disgree. Or agree. Or something.
#4.1.1.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 17:02 (Reply)
Obviously you missed it again, buddy boo.

Though, MorMitt says he is political conservative, no evidence supports the claim.

He's a liar.

...his MBA mindset might lead him to think that professional qualifications alone are enough and to give sort shrift to ideological commitment to the administration's overall agenda. http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzgyZDExMWZlMzY1YjQyOTQ3MWY0MDdlYjA5MTg2OWE=
#4.1.1.1.1.1 Leag on 2008-01-17 12:33 (Reply)
Okay, we trade they have crappy jobs; we don't trade they starve to death. Maybe, if we Do trade they develop skills, become more productive, and improve their lives.

Let's cut to the chase. Trade is Good for Us. Let's Trade.
#5 rufus on 2008-01-16 17:15 (Reply)
"crappy jobs" is our own political left's bullshit designation, anyway.

Over there, I'll bet they're tickled to have 'em. Obviously -- they show up for work.

And Walmart shoppers family of four statistically save $2,500/yr over no Walmart.

This is a large hunk of disposable income for many.

Do we throw millions of our poorest folks under a bus just to puff up a few hundred union bosses? The guys who'd have us forced-buying $100,000 Pintos, Novas, and Gremlins, if they could get away with it?
#5.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 17:36 (Reply)
I wish I had my AMC Pacer, the fishbowl model. A car before it's time.
#5.1.1 Anonymous on 2008-01-16 17:52 (Reply)
but point is, whatever you paid for it, the less the competition, the less the quality, the more the cost. but you know all that.
#5.1.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 18:02 (Reply)
anyway, i think George Jetson has one for sale --check eBay. his boy Elroy has been driving it but traded up for a DeLorean.
#5.1.1.2 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 20:08 (Reply)
headphones on, volume up loud, be prepared to be amazed at the technical expertise and rollicking good cheer on such a little piffle of a 60s tv theme song (so 60s, catch the music change when "Jane, his wife" enters--from early space jazz to off-key "chopsticks" -- the drill song the teachers made ya play -- hahaha --wot a 60s cultural 'tell'):

http://www.andreas.com/y2k/song.html
#5.1.1.2.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 20:29 (Reply)
principium tertii exclusi.

you have violated the law of the excluded middle.

do not pass go.

do not collect $200.
#5.2 Anonymous on 2008-01-16 17:47 (Reply)
principium tertii exclusi.

for Rufus' statement #5
#6 Anonymous on 2008-01-16 17:49 (Reply)
China: What if we trade, their elite stay in control, while welcoming and even improving on technologies we gave em, but eventually enslave us via pentagon cyber-hacking, satellite laser cannons and mega cyborg armies and navies when we dont pay our credit card bills?
#7 commander clopfelter on 2008-01-16 19:12 (Reply)
The ultimate collection agency so to speak... nah, I think not commander... we just need our back up against the wall a little and we'll do fine. Well that, and don't let Bill C. do any more Loral deals.
#7.1 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 19:26 (Reply)
You've got it. Promoted to "Seer of All Evil "

Let's kick some Chinee ass.
#7.2 Habu on 2008-01-16 20:46 (Reply)
"Carrier Group Went "Battle-Ready" Vs Chinese Sub, Destroyer
In the Taiwan Straits, according to a report by the Kyodo News Service"

See link to Kyodo News Service, and more, @ Belmont -- scroll down to Tuesday Jan 15 postings.

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/
#7.2.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 20:57 (Reply)
Habu... you seem to have found a meme... :)
#7.2.2 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 21:03 (Reply)
China should worry hard about keeping their elite in control because they have a zillion citizens who resent that 'control'. We still hold the trump card.
#8 Meta on 2008-01-16 20:54 (Reply)
Yes we do... hold the trump card, and will for quite some time in the future I think.
#8.1 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 21:07 (Reply)
Buddy,

Is there a lotion or sunblock I can use to un-aeolian myself?

Is there a federal grant I an get to study it?

Am I doomed?

Will my willy get petrified?
#9 Habu on 2008-01-16 21:01 (Reply)
Depends on who you show him to, don't it.
#9.1 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-16 21:05 (Reply)
Jeezis -- time for the mental image Lysol spritzer --
#9.2 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 21:26 (Reply)
Not me. I wanna see it. Pass the magnifying glass.
#9.2.1 Meta on 2008-01-16 21:51 (Reply)
haw -- habu the magnificant !
#9.2.1.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 22:06 (Reply)
I don't trust these People's Republics regardless of how many cigars they roll. Or egg rolls they smoke.
And stuff. They're one devious psycho short of a full dictatorship.

I say we give em the middle east, after we force our fine politicians to do "promoting experimentation and competition to find the best solutions" (originally quoted right here on this fine website) to get the real Saudi Arabia of energy - the good old USA - outta there. Make it their problem.
#10 Anonymous on 2008-01-16 22:17 (Reply)
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWFmNjUwY2MyMzU1ODI3OWMyY2E4OWU4ZjBhMGFhMDM=

(related)
#10.1 buddy larsen on 2008-01-16 22:47 (Reply)
RE: "everybody benefits from free trade of goods or labor, whether it's town to town, state to state, or country to country."

Except for those who work in B.C. forest industry, like loggers and mill workers. Seems they got left out of NAFTA. Not many folks who care or even notice.
#11 Patina on 2008-01-16 22:57 (Reply)
Also imho, BC softwood lumber is not even the same product as most US softwood. In the colder climates, like around Prince George, trees grow slower. The rings are tight and the lumber stays straighter. Southern softwood twists. Carpenters will sometimes pay a little more for the better quality if they are given the choice.
#12 Patina on 2008-01-17 09:00 (Reply)
Good points about the Canadian lumber industry Patina. It's the out of sight out of mind syndrome I think. Like most things I suppose, there is a lot of politics involved. Sounds like you know your lumber as well.
#13 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-17 10:39 (Reply)
One of the more frustrating aspects of the “fight” is that before NAFTA lumber was being traded duty free and almost everything else was under tariff. Now Canadian leftwing always uses the softwood fight to bash USA. The devastation to small towns is for real. I think Conservative PM Harper is giving BC forest towns $125 million this week to mitigate. Estimates they have lost 2 billion. USA can and likely will protest this as another subsidy to the lumber industry.
#14 Patina on 2008-01-17 16:46 (Reply)
Yes, an irony that. Re the tariff. What's also odd is that Washington and Oregon have taken huge hits as well over the past twenty years. Huge sums of money and politics... not a good combination.
#15 Luther McLeod on 2008-01-17 18:06 (Reply)

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