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Thursday, August 17. 2017Monuments, Identity and RaceI don't want to write a commentary on the violence in Charlottesville. What happened is terrible, wrong, and any discussion of violence begins and ends with the violent acts themselves, not the activity commentators choose to associate it with. I rarely take part in group protests or political gatherings because the likelihood of one outlier who wants to impart damage is very high and I neither want to be associated with, nor a victim of, poor individual choices. I do want to write a commentary on the removal of icons and monuments. In Tuesday's morning news, Bird Dog posted an article about Confederate statues in the Capitol building. Before I dig in, I want to point out that if a statue triggers your emotions, I suggest you think long and hard about why you're having an emotional response to an inanimate object. I'd further point out that if these emotions regarding the statue are related to taking offense, or increasing your anger or hatred, you may want to see a therapist. I'm not a psychologist or psychotherapist, and maybe one of our other writers who are in that field can elaborate (or even tell me I'm wrong) about this point. Consider one fact. Since Monday, monuments around the US have been removed, sometimes forcibly, in an angry response to Charlottesville. Taking this further, New York's governor, and NYC's mayor, have decided to review and remove 'symbols of hate'. One NYC councilman said "if not hate, at least symbols of hurt." I'll have to send him my list of statues that 'hurt' me. I think politicians, and people, get bent out of shape over strange things. When I see virtually any protest forming, I begin to think "Don't those people have better things to do?" It's been a long time since I marched or protested or did anything political in a group setting. I generally don't like aligning with large groups that claim to speak for me. But a bigger personal issue is the current mindset is the assumption that if you don't agree with removal, you must somehow be sympathetic to the white supremacists. Thought Police abound in today's society, driven by emotions of hurt and hate. Moral equivalency is employed with alarming regularity, often unnecessarily and ignorantly. I'll relate one experience I had in which I'd have to admit I was emotionally 'triggered'. It was a great learning lesson. I was in college. I was working on a TV show about hunger for the college station. A speaker arrived and handed out leaflets. One person pasted several of them on the set. It was an elephant with "GOP" written across his chest, preparing to drop a nuclear bomb. This was 1984, I was 22 years old and Reagan was being protested regularly on campus. I stood up, stated my opposition to the leaflet on the set, saying it neither had anything to do with hunger, and had everything to do with politics which we weren't discussing. I was told to be quiet and do my job. I protested again, saying it "offended my sensibilities" and that I couldn't work on a project like this. The professor who managed the station walked over, put his arm around me and said "you will be asked to do difficult and uncomfortable things throughout your life, and on your job. If you allow your emotions to get the better of you, it will cost you your job. Today, if you walk off the set, you will fail the day's project." I walked off the set, took my "F" for the day and still got an "A" for the class. But I learned a lesson. Don't let your emotions overwhelm you. I could have done the work and still been effective at my job. Today, I guess I could've sued for a "hostile workplace." Some writers are willing to compare the existence of Confederate statues in the US to the very lack of Nazi statues in Germany. There are, in my opinion, huge differences and the comparison is a false one. This isn't to say Confederate leaders were good people, just and wise, or people of necessarily great merit in today's world. Some were, but most were also not horrible people in the same fashion as Nazis, Lincoln even commented they were just like people in the Union, worshiping the same God, wanting the same things. We shouldn't be asking why these monuments exist for people who some find repulsive. We should be asking why are we so quick to pass judgement on history and values which are more or less antiquated and trying to compare them to modern conceptions of evil. There are statues around the world to cruel leaders who represented the 'best' of their time, or some other set of values which locals adhere to. Genghis Khan, Vlad Tepes, several brutal English kings such as Edward Longshanks, French Kings of various bloodthirsty type, Robespierre, Stalin, Mao (who only starved and killed millions)....to name a few. The statues have varying interest or value. Many are related to national identities, many are related to local history. I'm not opposed to removing statues of Confederates. But I am opposed to removing statues based on modern conceptions of right and wrong in order to salve guilt about our past. I will expand on this a bit. Why was it OK for President Obama to have his picture taken in front of a murderer? His photos in Cuba, with Che Guevara in the background, were highly offensive to large numbers of people, not least the Cubans who escaped his murderous activities. Che may not have been a strict racist (he did write quite a bit about the need for ending racial injustice, but he rarely wrote about inclusion and often wrote about exclusion). People will justify his non-racist stance on the basis of his having a mulatto girlfriend. But, of course, having a black friend really doesn't mean you aren't racist. I know, because when I point out that I have black friends during discussions on racism, it's laughed off by Progressives as meaningless. But to Progressives who like Che, it's somehow meaningful. So let's just say Che was racist, to a fairly large degree. Because he was. If racism and murder are wrong, then Obama's approval of those pictures sends a mixed message. I don't really have a problem with Obama having taken a picture with Che's image in the background. After all, I have several just like it. I went to Cuba last March and took pictures. Che has a very mixed response from the populace there. Some love him. Others put up with him. I have a feeling, as Cuba modernizes and learns the full extent of his murderous ways, they will remove many of his images. Taking them all down would be a mistake. I had my picture taken for 2 reasons. First, he is an important part of history (I also have a picture of myself at Marx' grave for the same reason), and I respect history, even the worst aspects of it. Second, if his images are removed, I'll have proof that I was there prior to people choosing to whitewash their brains. It's my opinion that Che's image, for better or worse, is a part of Cuban history, and keeping his image will forever remind us of the worst aspects of that history. Plastering over it won't make him go away, and may even lead people to believe what he stood for is OK since someone in power felt it was a good idea to remove him from history. US history has its own worst aspects, many of which happened with the Civil War. While the Civil War was sparked by slavery, and certainly this was the primary issue of the time, it was about states' rights, too. The Confederates' Supremacy Clause does not alter the fact that states' rights played a role, since states' rights is still a major issue today. To be completely clear, slavery was wrong, and while most Confederate leaders were supporters of slavery, there were Union leaders who had slaves (Grant's wife owned them, and Grant had one until he freed him in 1859). Lincoln himself was opposed to slavery, but also made it clear when he ran for president that ending it was not on his to-do list, nor did he think blacks should have the same rights as whites. Lincoln was no abolitionist. His desire to free slaves was a personal desire, but it was primarily politically motivated. However, states' rights is still up for discussion, even if the primary motivation for states' rights during the Confederacy was based on slavery and they ultimately rejected those own rights in their own Constitution. These facts lead us to a logical conclusion, and it's unpleasant. We're going to have to tear down every statue because of the flaws inherent in so many individuals. Even those we find 'great' leaders had major problems related to 'hurt' and 'hate'. Jefferson is lauded with statues and a massive stone monument - but was a slave owner and even kept one as a mistress. Washington had slaves. Adams didn't have slaves, and hated slavery, but couldn't he have done more to end slavery with his role as a member of the Constitutional Convention? Ultimately, we'll have to ask whether or not any person is worthy of a statue, because everyone's got a problem of some sort, and everyone is likely to 'offend' somehow. In fact, Robert E. Lee opposed the creation of Coonfederate statues, because he felt they would ultimately divide people. Which brings up a question - why build monuments at all if they are likely to offend at some point in the future? Furthermore, once we have them, won't taking them down 'offend' certain people who enjoy or like them? Even Teddy Roosevelt is under attack and who knows which historical figure is next? All you have to do is present a case of presumed 'hurt', it seems. Are statues offensive, or is being offended by them is really just an individual choice to find offense in whatever suits us at a particular time? I don't believe statues represent statements of society in every single instance. Yes, I will agree that slavery is wrong. But do even hated figures deserve to have a grave desecrated? I don't believe Nathan Bedford Forrest deserves a statue, or a place of honor. But at the time of his death, many citizens felt he did. That was their choice. That situation has changed today, and removal is fine if the proper course of action is taken. But let's also demand Seattle remove Lenin, while Arnhem has to take down Stalin. Clearly, the case for 'hurt' and 'hate' which statues seem to project is purely situational. It's hard to argue that it's about any kind of universal qualities which people hold. I don't understand the Confederacy/Nazi comparison for many reasons. To start with, post-war Germany outlawed the Nazi party and all its symbolism. The Nazi ideology isn't memorialized because it's memorialized in laws which prevent the construction or showing of anything related to them. The Allies required all Nazi iconography be removed (looks like some trees managed to survive somehow). During the Reconstruction, former Confederates were needed to help stabilize the political and economic structure of the South. Taking an oath to abide by the Constitution and uphold the Union was enough to get back into good graces. Those Confederates continued to rule the South, unlike the Nazis, who were prevented from holding public office under de-nazification. For another, the Confederacy is a very meaningful part of our national history, whereas Nazi Germany was an aberration in Germany's. Today, people (mostly on the left, in my experience) call for an Article 5 convention. This essentially acknowledges the right of states to Finally and probably most importantly, we can't apply today's moral values to the past. Nazi Germany was recognized by many as a totalitarian state, while the Confederacy was following a perceived socially and legally acceptable path. Nazis first won people over with passion and pomp, then with outright terror. The Confederacy, aside from a few small pockets, didn't have to convince many people of its place in the political landscape. Slavery was never a good thing, yet for many years it was a normal part of everyday life, going back deep into history. In many cultures it was simply accepted. We can decide they were wrong for believing it, but we can't fault them for believing what was common in their time. Similarly, we shouldn't apply geographical values to areas they don't fit. While I was born in a city, I was raised in a rural area, and now I live in a city again. The values here are extremely different from those where I grew up. Believing in the subjugation of a people today, as Nazis and other white supremacists do, is not equivalent to the belief, in 1850, that slavery of any kind was justified. Today there is no generally accepted moral code that stipulates slavery is or was justified. Support for subjugating people is a fringe mentality. But another fringe mentality is those people who believe themselves so intellectually elite they can impose their values on others through force of law. If a community decides to tear down its Confederate statues, then let it. But the current trend of outsiders, both in protest groups, and political entities, demanding the removal of something they disapprove of is incredibly presumptuous. Let the people decide. It's their right, as given by the Constitution, to do so. My sons, long ago, once asked me about the Civil War when we were visiting Fort Sumter. I pointed out to them it was a painful episode in the nation's development. But we should remember both sides' roles equally because while slavery was wrong, the Confederates also had positive points and qualities, too. I pointed out we should remember them not only for those positive qualities, but also to remind ourselves that we're not perfect, either. There is no moral equivalence taking place here. That implies that supporting history is the same as supporting outdated ideas. The real problem is identity politics. When we choose to define ourselves as white, black, Asian or Hispanic, or Catholic or Protestant, or by our political alignment, and we join activist groups which promote and defend those identity politics, we create a divisive culture. We live in a culture that has decided that public discourse is secondary to the right to identify with particular groups, and that offending those groups is an offense in itself. The only solution is a level of respect and tolerance. I have every reason to tolerate and accept that neo-nazis want to march, but that doesn't mean I support them. If and when I choose to march, I don't want that right denied. We harm ourselves when we pay too much attention, and give more than reasonably legal leeway, to violent identity groups like Nazis and Antifa. Over time fringes will become more marginalized as they fight to gain the attention we should voluntarily deny them. When the mainstream press, and politicians are lauding improper conduct which proclaims free speech to be whatever they believe it is, we are providing a platform for hatred. They assume denying rights will solve all our problems. It creates more. If I want the statues of Confederates to remain in place, I do so for one reason. It's a reminder we all make mistakes, and that history is full of bad ideas. But the removal of statues isn't important to me. It's the idea of removing them which is. Unless the concept is properly discussed, debated, and voted on by the people of the region, then removing monuments should be a non-starter. Outsiders need not rush in to make a point based on their identity group so they can grandstand. When people march to support monuments which they like, regardless of the ideologies they stand for or promote, we must remember as a nation we are open to individuals sharing all ideas, no matter how repulsive or disgusting we find the ideology. Removing a statue doesn't make the ideas behind that statue go away. If anything, it creates a cultural blindspot and a vacuum which promotes a rallying cry for true believers. Trackbacks
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QUOTE: But do even hated figures deserve to have a grave desecrated? I don't believe Nathan Bedford Forrest deserves a statue, or a place of honor. In the last few days lefties have been defending the honoring of Robert Byrd in WV because of his supposed repentance. Well, Forrest deserves the same measure of forgiveness as he also repented. Of course, we don't teach that part of history since he is useful for our Two Minutes Hate. I agree. I considered mentioning Byrd. Frankly, I'm not sure he deserves a statue or any kind of memorial - IF the same qualifiers are applied to him which are applied to others.
First, the War Between the States was not fought over slavery, but instigated by the British banksters and their agents the Northeast over the control of mercantislism. Slavery was merely a hot button used by Lincoln as an after-thought. The North, especially the deWolfe family of Rhode Island and their bankers, made a fortune building the ships that ran cotton/rum/slaves in the Atlantic triad. Others made their money supporting this manufacturing, which also required slaves and indentured servants. The North was just too rocky for the intensive agriculture the South enjoyed for tobacco, cotton, rice, sugar and other products for trade. Some census figures suggest only 8% of the Southerners owned slaves, so a war that devastated the entire South was barely worth the loss over a slave population that was increasingly expensive and losing its value to the cotton gin and other inventions.
Lincoln upended our U.S. Constitution in many ways, resulting in the end of our Constitutional Republic, which has been trod upon so many times now (Woodrow Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Clinton, both Bushes, Obama) that it barely resembles the world our founders had in mind when they wrote it. Nor does it stand for the individual freedom and rule of law our ancestors fought for in the American Revolution. Since the days of Lincoln, we have been propagandized into global conflicts that did nothing to secure the native populations, but did everything to line the pockets of those who control the money. As for Charlotteville, people, wake up. I went through the '60s with all its manifestations, mostly around Vietnam and the sheer number of young men with no connections to "get out of the draft" and were being slaughtered or maimed in a manufactured war to control drug and human trafficking. Big dollars. These days, the campus and inner cities conflicts are organized, very organized, by those social INjustice warriors raised by Saul Alinsky and the Cloward/Piven practitioners. They advertise on Craig's List, pay-to-play in their dramas, and attract the same crowd of malcontents over and over and over again who are bused into the venue well prepared for battle. The lawyers and bail are lined up, paid for with taxpayer dollars or tax-deductible donations to foundations and other NGOs, should one of the players be arrested. The ACLU and SPLC are notified. The media such as the NYT, WaPo and all the TV outlets receive scripts in advance for their writers and on-camera newsreaders. Note that use of the same words, same phrases, same conclusions -- all op/ed -- even when contrary facts are uncovered. The social media giants edit and expunge any contributors who don’t comply with the set narrative. We are being USED by the warmongers and corporatists who make trillions – and some suggest $100 trillion is at stake – who have constructed a federal bureaucracy so complex that no one understands it. Match that bureaucracy with membership in a UN commanded by leaders who don’t believe in human rights, individual freedom and the rule of law, BUT seem to have control over OUR trade negotiations, climate change policy and the right to free speech…we have lost a war without really going to battle. Remember the Food-for-Oil scandal among the many overlorded by the UN, WHO and other tentacles of that organization. Donald Trump was elected because our citizens are fed up with being ruled and controlled by globalists who would love to see us as slaves to their designs. Charlotteville along with all the dust-ups of the last four administrations and, especially, the Obama years, are hoaxes made-to-order to numb the heart of America. The growing opiod crisis, the constant battles on college campuses, the MISeducation of our children – let’s keep the citizens eye off the real dismantling of our Constitutional Republic. Don’t tolerate this. The Dems have been losing election after election. Fund raisng has dried up. I think they would like nothing better than to see more Charlottesvilles, or better yet full fledged race riots across America.
The mayor of Charlottesville immediately blamed the violence on Trump for "preaching hate". The Left controls The Narrative. In any left-right clash the Right can be framed as the bad guys. I would speculate that the hope is the Left fighting Neo-Nazis and white supremacists combined with the proper virtue signalling from Dem leaders and an allied media will lead to an avalanche of fund raising for the Dem Party and their affiliated NGO rackets like the SPLC. It has the added benefit of further isolating Trump as there is nothing he can say that won't be used against him. Ditto for any GOP politician that speaks out. This is the best comment ever to appear here. It's a sterling rebuke to rightists too dim to realize that everything they're responding to is a canard, a red herring, a diversion, a lie, and a ploy.
The left didn't take the nation. The right handed it to them. jma: Slavery was merely a hot button used by Lincoln as an after-thought.
False. The rebelling states were explicit concerning their "Declaration of Causes of Secession". QUOTE: Mississippi: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery QUOTE: Georgia: For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. QUOTE: Texas: We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable. jma: Some census figures suggest only 8% of the Southerners owned slaves About one in four families in the Confederacy owned slaves, more in the deep South. jma: so a war that devastated the entire South was barely worth the loss over a slave population that was increasingly expensive and losing its value to the cotton gin and other inventions. The cotton gin, invented in 1793, actually resulted in an explosion of slave labor as it made cotton production much more profitable. I checked the census figures for the last 150 years. It appears that nobody alive was ever a slave or owned a slave.
mike m: I checked the census figures for the last 150 years. It appears that nobody alive was ever a slave or owned a slave.
Great! Then no one should mind removing statues of leaders of an armed insurrection whose only claim to fame was fighting to preserve slavery. You must have slept through history class. General Lee's statue was the latest to be vandalized by those who imagine themselves as perpetual victims. While RE Lee can certainly be called a leader of the C.S.A., to state that his only "claim to fame" was his role in the Civil War can only be made out of ignorance or gross bias.
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mike m
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2017-08-18 21:03
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mike m: While RE Lee can certainly be called a leader of the C.S.A., to state that his only "claim to fame" was his role in the Civil War can only be made out of ignorance or gross bias.
This is where you have an opportunity to cure ignorance. What aspect of Lee's history would justify a 60-foot statue in the center of Richmond?
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Zachriel
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2017-08-19 08:50
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"First, the War Between the States was not fought over slavery, but instigated by the British banksters and their agents the Northeast over the control of mercantilism."
Oh, brother. Still, I suppose we should at least take some comfort in the fact that you didn't blame the Civil War on Jewish bankers. I hope you were being sarcastic. The following article summarizes some of the economic and political concerns of the time. Frankly, the world crises can always be rolled into the pharse, "Follow the money."
http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-civil-war-finance/ I'd rather hoped you were. But alas, no.
Simplifying the source of any given conflict down to evil bankers is an old crutch. Early Christianity forbade and strict Islam still forbids charging interest on loans, not to mention usury. In Western Europe, the Jewish community simply stepped into fill the need for fast money the monarchies who could not squeeze more from their citizens by taxation. Today, religion matters little and those of every heritage are involved in keeping "the money world goin' 'round...and round...and round."
Where would we be without credit? sarc/ fer sure.
#2.4.1.1.1
jma
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2017-08-18 13:47
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I think people that are offended by[pick one] have a very personal problem that may need an intervention of sorts. They should look in the nearest mirror and evaluate what they see. If for example I say or do something that offends you think about it. I may have Intended to do so. We used to call this thin-skinned. Now I am thin-skinned due to age not attitude.
The media-political complex effort to destroy Trump seems to me to be at the heart of the problem. I don't have an answer for them but then I don't really give a crap about their problems either. I just hope it doesn't take the country down while they sort it out. The statue thing seems to me like displacement in psychology. If biting Trump isn't getting the needed response, then going after something somewhat racist/fascist/etc related is in the crosshairs. Wonder what the next direction of attack will be once the statues come down ...
Tin foil hat alert.
It seems the police stand aside when the BLM and the so-called anti-fa break windows and crack heads. One wonders if they are becoming a defacto government sanctioned militia? It's a great model for the progressive left. Think about it. Anytime someone wants to protest progressive policies, they send in the anti-fa and BLM thugs to crack heads and break up the demonstration while the police turn a blind eye. Then media blames the protestors for the violence and brands any GOP pols that comment as racists. And there is just enough separation that dem pols can't be held responsible. Ultimately these groups could be be incorporated into the DHS and given real weapons and official DOJ protection and then . . . Katy bar the door. But I am just a crazy old man. That could never happen here. Gallons of ink wasted serving one faulty premise: That the lunatic left will lead the list of topics and loser rightists will forever capitulate and assume a measured response means something.
Meanwhile, having successfully chipped yet another hunk out of normal culture, lunatics are already off in search of another target the putative right will fall all over itself defending against fallacy, lies, and generally, insanity. The ratchet always clicks one way, doesn't it? And the right, forever on its back foot in one unforced error after another, a hundred years and more and running, happily defends itself and normal life all over again. To complete apathy. Ann Althouse reports today of the removal of a plaque and monument from a cemetery in Madison, WI that commemorated the Confederate soldiers, who died during their time as POWs at a nearby camp, buried there. So far they have not moved to dig up the bones and grind them into dust.
8/17/17, 3:32 PM
8/17/17, 3:32 PM 8/17/17, 3:32 PM http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-removal-of-city-owned-monuments-to.html It's pretty low to politicize graveyards. This Slogin creature must be pretty creepy. The demolished plaque wasn't even what I would call a monument. Lots of good comments, thoughtful ones...... sparrow said... I think a great deal of this hypersensitivity comes from the loss of a sense of honor. We don't value honor much anymore, but in that day it was part of the culture. What is lost by removing this plaque is what it says about the generosity of the Madisonians who showed respect for their fallen enemies and recognized their shared humanity. Today we dehumanize each other routinely and the sense of an honorable confllict is lost. sparrow said... I think a great deal of this hypersensitivity comes from the loss of a sense of honor. We don't value honor much anymore, but in that day it was part of the culture. What is lost by removing this plaque is what it says about the generosity of the Madisonians who showed respect for their fallen enemies and recognized their shared humanity. Today we dehumanize each other routinely and the sense of an honorable confllict is lost. sparrow said... I think a great deal of this hypersensitivity comes from the loss of a sense of honor. We don't value honor much anymore, but in that day it was part of the culture. What is lost by removing this plaque is what it says about the generosity of the Madisonians who showed respect for their fallen enemies and recognized their shared humanity. Today we dehumanize each other routinely and the sense of an honorable confllict is lost. Sorry for the triple post; every time I submitted I got an error message.
What ideologies get off on desecrating cemeteries? I can only think of the Taliban/Isis and the NeoNazis. Did the Nazis desecrate cemeteries during the Reich?
It seems so loathsome and beta male like. Remember when the statue of choice was the Ten Commandments? I guess book burning is next.
Here's the problem I have with all this, and I have to say this whole statue thing is really bothering me.
First, disclosure. I wrote a few posts ago I have an ancestor, a great-grandfather, who fought for the Confederacy. I also have another great-great-grandfather who fought for the Union (he was originally from Rhode Island, but was living in Hawaii at the start of the war and went back to fight for the Union). He never returned home and because of the great distance and poor communications of those days, no one knows what happened to him. It was presumed he was killed in the war or died of disease. So I have ancestors that were on both sides of this fight. I had the good fortune of going to a small college in New England with a beautiful campus. Right near one of the older buildings on campus is the college's Civil War Memorial. It features a soldier at parade rest, not so much unlike the one that was just pulled down in Durham, except he is wearing the typical kepi cap of a Union enlisted man, instead of the Confederate slouch hat. It was erected in memory of all those college students or graduates who had died during the Civil War and has the simple inscription, "1861-1865." http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMH1E5_The_Soldiers_Monument_Williamstown_MA I always had fond feelings for that statue, and the fact that every year, without fail, it was kept up and decorated with American flags. It was one of the things that made that college what it was and is an important piece of its history. As you know, monuments like this are found throughout New England, probably in almost every town, big or small. Some are simple and some are elaborate, and they have become a symbol of New England. You will even see a statue almost identical to the one at my college featured in the famous children's book, "The Fox Went Out on a Chilly Night" (Spier). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5QBlkG_TwQ&t=1m13s I must have read that book dozens of times to my kids when they were little, and I remember always stopping at the picture of the Civil War statue in the town common because it brought back memories. Now I know that monuments just like this are found throughout the South as well. I would suspect the great majority of them are like the one pulled down in Durham, a common soldier who is the counterpart of the one I looked at every day in college. Do I think that these were erected to oppress black people, or somehow to promote racism or slavery? No. I think they were erected for the same reason the one at my college was erected, to remember those from those towns who had fought and died in that terrible war, and that they are never forgotten. I am sure that people who lived and live there have the same sort of feelings for those statues that I feel for the one at my college. All I could feel when I saw the video of the statue being torn down in Durham was desecration. It's really a punch in the gut that such a thing could be allowed. And I can really understand why people are getting upset about this and feel they should defend those Confederate statues. If we now start to talk about pulling down all the Confederate monuments, shouldn't we similarly be talking about pulling down all the Union monuments as well? Obviously, I think that would be an absolutely horrible idea. But I don't see how you can be consistent about destroying Civil War memorials unless you agree to destroy them all. Great post. I think you know the answer. The press sympathizes with the left, which has decided that Confederate = hate.
My family on both sides came from Germany in the 1870s, so we couldn't have owned slaves if we had wanted to. Instead, for the first 4 generations (up until my own parents) we picked the cotton that slaves no longer picked. I didn't have a dog in the fight. But as a history teacher and a lifelong learner, I am awed by the courage of the people on BOTH sides of the fight. I would like to think I would have been brave enough to face a line of bullets coming at me if I had lived in the 1860s. I am not a coward, but I can't be sure I could have done it. Especially if I had been through it once before and had seen good friends turn into corpses in front of my eyes. I see the statues like you do. They commemorate courage, determination and a commitment to do what you think is right. Taking them down is caving in to the leftist bullies who have the ear of the media. Intafada is using Nazi techniques. Jim: But I don't see how you can be consistent about destroying Civil War memorials unless you agree to destroy them all.
Because Confederate memorials concern a rebellion undertaken to protect the institution of slavery. If the only memorials were of simple soldiers erected in cemeteries soon after the Civil War, few would object. Instead, many are large structures commemorating conquerors erected at the height of Jim Crow to announce the return of white supremacy. ^ Lately the clattering site robot is getting better at putting together vaguely concerning boilerplate. With such intonations littering the space, let's see how long it is until some hapless rightist stumbles by and takes it seriously just on these meandering terms alone, as if it were sentient.
Zach: Absolutely false. Many of the memorials in the North were built during the same time period (late 1800s, early 1900s). One reason being that the remaining Civil War veterans were beginning to pass away and people did not want their memories to be forgotten. Another was an appeal by President McKinley (a Union veteran) in 1898 calling for the memories and graves of both Union and Confederate soldiers to be honored in a spirit of reconciliation. https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SDU18981215.2.2 As one result of his appeal, a Confederate section of Arlington National Cemetery was established, along with a Confederate Memorial. Many of these monuments in the South were put up by the Daughters of the Confederacy, whose major purpose is to honor the memory of the Confederate dead. Although predecessor organizations existed, the active involvement of this organization in honoring the Confederate dead was another outgrowth of President McKinley's appeal to honor the Confederate dead.
Zach, if you just want to say you hate all those who fought for the Confederacy you are free to do so, but don't engage in the revisionist rewriting of history. Jim: Absolutely false. Many of the memorials in the North were built during the same time period (late 1800s, early 1900s). One reason being that the remaining Civil War veterans were beginning to pass away and people did not want their memories to be forgotten. Another was an appeal by President McKinley (a Union veteran) in 1898 calling for the memories and graves of both Union and Confederate soldiers to be honored in a spirit of reconciliation.
Actually, you just made the point. If they had left off at honoring the graves of Confederate veterans, there would probably not be much of an issue. Rather, they erected large 'patriotic' statues in the town square as symbols of the return of white supremacy. How do we know this? Because they said so. Zach: To start with, your image is not even of a Civil War memorial. Second, the inscription you show without explanation was only added in 1932 and has nothing to do with what I am talking about. You probably should have mentioned those things.
I don't disagree that there is a problem if the monument is truly a white supremacy monument. I don't know if there are such things as KKK monuments, for example, but I could see those coming down and my guess is they were probably taken down in the Sixties or Seventies. My objection is for any monuments that relate to the Civil War, whether common soldiers or leaders. This is the latest one now on the radar screen, a memorial honoring 4,000 Confederate prisoners of war who died in a Union prison camp in Chicago. I think getting rid of that one clearly would be a rewriting of history equivalent to bulldozing down the Nazi concentration camps. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-confederate-statue-chicago-met-0817-20170816-story.html
#9.2.2.1.1
Jim
on
2017-08-18 16:30
(Reply)
Jim: My objection is for any monuments that relate to the Civil War, whether common soldiers or leaders.
If they had stopped with small memorials at battle sites and graveyards, it probably never would have been such an issue. Rather, they erected large monuments in the centers of towns as markers of whites regaining political control. You can see this sentiment in the inscription of "Battle of Liberty Place Monument", or in popular art, such as "Birth of a Nation (1915)" where the rousing ending has the heroic KKK stopping unarmed blacks from going to the election polls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXxY1QWPBtc&t=4m14s
#9.2.2.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2017-08-19 09:03
(Reply)
For Zach:
Your argument/statement is flawed and incomplete information ! I think someone scammed the buyers of the Lucy statue. When I saw it I assumed it was of some black woman.
The government is absolutely a beneficiary of the program to liquidate rebel heroes; shut down media outlets expressing dissent; vilify opponents of the regime; and destroy literary freedom. All of this has to be done in the name of orthodoxy, and Neo-Stalinism.
Bulldog: remove Lenin
The Lenin was removed from its display in Slovakia. It's now on private property and is for sale (in case you are interested). Bulldog: take down Stalin Heh. The statue Stalin is in spitting distance of next a statue of Franco. Thank you for proving my point for me. You're an often witless addition to every conversation. Have a nice day.
Bulldog: Thank you for proving my point for me.
If your point was that there is no movement in the West to erect statues of Stalin and Lenin, then you're welcome. Thank you all for pointing out a lot of things I never knew.
A few random observations:
(1) In Charlottesville, there were assholes on both sides looking for a fight. Just because one side caused more injuries, doesn't make them wrong (or right). Like mom said, two wrongs don't make a right. (2) Despite what Little Marco said, Trump criticism of "both sides" in no way implied that each side was only 50% wrong. What he said was both sides were 100% wrong. #MAGA (3) If they tear down every Confederate monument in the USA - or every white guy monument in the USA - the black "victicrats" will just find something new to bitch about and blame for their failures...and Rev Al will help them find something or someone to blame. (4) The white supremacists in Charlottesville are NOT conservatives. Their values align more closely with Democrats - they just blame a different "oppressor" for their problems. (5) Their's a black activist who is demanding that schools, streets, etc named after Washington and Jefferson should be renamed because those great men had slaves. I know lots of black dudes named Washington and Jefferson. Do we rename them or just tie ropes around them like the statues? Looking in from the outside, I'm afraid I see less and less chance of any serious, sober defence of Confederate monuments and statues now.
Blame that on the idiots who showed up sporting KKK insignia and Nazi flags: they poisoned the atmosphere by their mere presence and have made it so much easier for the likes of BLM and other lunatic groups on the left to paint anyone daring to suggest the statues be left alone as a fascist or a white supremacist. To quote the Beav: "I shoulda known somethin' was wrong when Eddie Haskell was on our side." Human trafficking (i.e. slavery) not only exists today, but along with drugs and arms is a huge resource for the shadow governments no one wants to confront. But, let's clean up the U.S. trade in humans before taking on the world's problem.
Yes, both parties reek of mendacity. Our FBI, CIA, DOJ, NSA and the bureaucracies of all the alphabet agencies need sweeping and disinfecting. I wonder if our corporatists who make billions off the backs of sweat shop workers around the world can tolerate earning a bit less to bring that work back to the U.S. where we have higher standards and more controls. BTW, The Pakistani Awan family is just the caboose of an enormous train barreling through our security since they started their reign under the Clintons. We have over 17 ISIS compounds in the U.S. that have not been inspected for arms. Also, why did the Clintons support the Turk Fethullah Gulen moving to the U.S., allow him to stay in the U.S. after medical treatment, allow him to set up a network of schools and support industries around the U.S. and, further, import H1-B workers from Turkey to staff these concerns rather than hiring U.S. citizens? Inquiring minds want to know what's behind this huge open-door policy on Muslims while Christians and Jews are being beheaded by those who belong to this religion of peace. |