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Monday, January 23. 2012

Is Algebra ll too hard?

Is Algebra ll too difficult for most high schoolers? It's a big debate in California.


I honestly do not know the answer, but it seems basic to me. If you can't master Algebra and Trig, and use them to hone the brain, it's tough for me to figure out how you graduate from high school.


Somewhat related, The College-Degree Mania in Ohio. As Leef says:



Sorry, governor, but colleges don’t graduate students. Students graduate themselves if their efforts are sufficient, and the sad fact is that many who enroll are so academically weak and unmotivated that they don’t amass enough course credits to get their degrees within six years. That isn’t the fault of the institutions.



Maintaining standards is an endless and possibly a losing battle with today's credentialism. Someday, we'll have to admit that most people are not scholars (even to the level of Algebra ll), and that learning how to do something useful and practical might be more important. That view, however, runs right up against the Big Education lobbies.


There is no market for Sociology Majors, but there is a big market for Master Plumbers and Gunsmiths. They make more money, too. But they need to know some math to do their work.

Posted by The Barrister in Education, Our Essays at 18:56 | Comments (25) | Trackbacks (0)

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Algebra II is a big hurdle for the 49.99% of young people who are below average in intelligence.

Wait - what? 50 % below average intelligence?

You don't really need Algebra II to be a Master Electrician, Plumber or Carpenter - you do do be a competent machinist - but it helps. And it's not that hard.
#1 Tom Francis on 2012-01-23 19:46 (Reply)
The problem is they provide Algebra II and other math instruction as abstract concepts with no practical experience. If they offered some manual arts that used the elements the comprehension will go way up. However, such practicality is beyond the education establishment. Staffed as it is with those who excelled in the abstract and probably disdain the useful and practical.

Even those who can master it need the manual art experience. We have way to many engineers who design things that can't be built. Also, who cannot design to the practicalities of standard material stock, such as, substations that require short cutoffs of dimensional lumber for want of a quarter inch shift in the design phase.
#2 JKB on 2012-01-23 20:45 (Reply)
What is Algebra II?

I know it was a course offered when I was in high school. I didn't take it. I use Algebra at work when solving problems. But if you asked me what concepts I was using I'd give you a blank stare. I could show you....but that's all.

In my opinion, advanced math courses like Algebra II, Trigonometry and Calculus are good for training your mind. Learning how to define and solve problems. But, unless you are going into science or engineering, there are few practical applications. Or, could be an officer in the field artillery.

(Though my college room mate-BA History, was told by one of his instructors at Fort Sill OBC "Don't worry about the math. We assume you know nothing and will teach you all the formulas. Memorize them and all you have to do is plug and chug.")
#3 Steve C. on 2012-01-23 21:10 (Reply)
When I was in high school (well, our equivalent as I'm not in the US) those courses were mandatory for everyone...

First failure of the US education system: make basic math optional (and yes, algebra and trig are basic math, not advanced).
#3.1 J.T. Wenting on 2012-01-23 21:38 (Reply)
I honestly do not know the answer, but it seems basic to me. If you can't master Algebra and Trig, and use them to hone the brain, it's tough for me to figure out how you graduate from high school.

If you are talking about college prep, I would agree with you. For those who are not going onto college, I would not agree with you.

Some basic instruction in statistics would assist high school students in their future lives as citizens and voters, since they will often see statistics in the news. Basic statistics would be a lot more useful than “Algebra II for Dummies.”

As one year I tried to teach Algebra I to a lower level group of 9th graders, I may not be as enthusiastic as you about four years of math for everyone. [On the college level, I am dead set against allowing people to get a degree without some competency in math. I also suspect that the reasoning ability developed in math may help turn libs towards wingnuttery. Many politically correct courses do not help develop reasoning ability, as all students need to do is parrot back what the instructor says.]

Captain Tom: Algebra II: And it's not that hard.

It's not that hard for someone who scores 700 on the Math SAT. For those who score in the 400s or below, much more difficult.

I recall a note in my HS yearbook about Algebra II (though we called it Math III): "No more math misery," from the class President, otherwise a solid B student, who was in my math class.

While it was not misery for me, it was misery for her. Algebra II is not for everyone. For those who believe it is, I suggest that they try teaching Algebra II to a lower level group of students.

JKB's comment about applying math to practical experience is well taken. We made a big mistake in cutting out Industrial Arts courses. Big mistake.
#4 Gringo on 2012-01-23 21:15 (Reply)
That's a good point, but JKB's point is also a good one. I took IA all four years - I became so good at welding that I almost considered bailing on my college plans and taking that up as a trade - good welders and steel fabricators make really decent money. I still weld today in fact - TIG, MIG, Gas, Arc - you name it, I have the equipment and the requisite skill.

I think it helped me in my career as an engineer to tell the truth.

Then again, I was taking Calculus as a Junior in high school so it comes naturally to me - I just don't understand how it doesn't to others. :>)
#4.1 Tom Francis on 2012-01-24 07:02 (Reply)
"scholars"

I'm becoming more and more convinced that 'scholars' are the root cause, no matter the many exceptions, of the crap we find ourselves in.

You'll forgive me if I don't bow down to their munificence. Even if they do know Algebra II.
.
#5 XRay on 2012-01-23 21:59 (Reply)
The faction that has doctorates in education are turning out to be a reliable source of bad ideas. It is difficult to escape the notion that the educational establishment is incompetent to the point of being unable to recognize that some of their most cherished ideas are consummately wrong.
#5.1 John on 2012-01-24 03:54 (Reply)
I'd put my eighth grade math class against California's Algebra II (normalizing for age and experience of course).

Of course, that is always the answer in public schools when kids don't do well in a class - make it easier so it doesn't hurt their feelings. In my high school, if the whole class got a 0 on a test, the whole class got a 0. A classmate of mine failed Senior Math (pre calculus) and because the school did not offer Senior Math during the summer, his choice was to either take calculus at the local college or come back next year to retake his class. So before he could graduate from high school, he had to take a college course!

There are many problems in the public schools and many people who are responsible for them, but somehow all the solutions end up hurting the kids one way or another. It's criminal.
#6 mudbug on 2012-01-23 23:13 (Reply)
Statistics and probability are indeed useful subjects for everyone, but those subjects are beyond the understanding of the large majority of teen age high school students, not to mention their teachers. From personal experience, I can state with 100% certainty (LOL) that statistics is beyond the understanding of most college students. It's even beyond the understanding of lots of educated medical researchers, too, which explains why you see so many contradictory clinical trials reported in the press. And it's a subject that's WAAAAY beyond the understanding of virtually all news reporters who write those articles about medicine. Say the words Null Hypothesis to a reporter and all you'll get is the blankest of stares.
#7 Agent Cooper on 2012-01-23 23:29 (Reply)
Even before having P&S in grad school, I remember thinking, "What an idiot!" about the reporter when I saw a story in the Austin paper about the rate of HIV at the University of Texas. Because X% of the blood samples taken at the UT student health center tested positive for HIV, the reporter stated that X% of the overall student body was HIV positive.
#7.1 the gold digger (Link) on 2012-01-24 10:29 (Reply)
What you'll find is that people master the math of statistics without understanding how to question or understand the sample selection process, and what makes it valid or invalid.
#7.1.1 RonF on 2012-01-24 15:52 (Reply)
It has been demonstrated repeatedly that statistics is beyond the grasp of the great majority of PhD research scientists in experimental fields.

Reviews of published papers in refereed journals by competent PhD statisticians have repeatedly shown that the majority of these papers have major errors in statistical procedures and/or interpretations.

I have participated in numerous MS and PhD final exams in experimental fields, and I have seldom had a candidate accurately explain what a confidence interval or p-value means.

Hold fields of experimental science, eg, but not limited to, nutrition, epidemiology and climatology, are vitiated by nonsensical, inane "statistics."

So, I excuse the high school kids.

PS. They really need shop and shop arithmetic.
#7.2 bob sykes on 2012-01-24 12:45 (Reply)
Statistics is subtle. The math is simple, but the application and interpretation requires real thought.
#7.2.1 chuck on 2012-01-25 00:46 (Reply)
I believe we worry too much about this sort of thing. I believe in the market. It can and will be brutal but eventually the government will have to give way to reality.Won't be pretty but anyone prepared will be rewarded.
#8 Rick9911 on 2012-01-24 02:05 (Reply)
I took algebra classes in junior high school and two years of calculus in high school.
That was California then.
That's not California now.
#9 PacRim Jim (Link) on 2012-01-24 03:52 (Reply)
The author Philip K. Dick wrote a short story about a future in which abortion is legal until the person under consideration has learned basic algebra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pre-persons

I don't support this for abortion, but other things (such as voting) are more tempting.
#10 John on 2012-01-24 04:24 (Reply)
PKD was aptly named - he really was a dick (in the pejorative sense), but he did take stands. That's a very thought provoking story by the way - highly recommend it.
#10.1 Tom Francis on 2012-01-24 07:03 (Reply)
"they need to know some math to do their work."

I tutored Algebra II to high school students in Miami. I thought we would be factoring polynomials and solving quadratic equations, but these kids didn't even know their times tables, fractions, or decimals. Many of them were not interested in learning them, either. I would ask the girls what kind of job they thought they could get without knowing how to make change or do basic math. They would shrug and tell me they would be getting married so it wasn't a problem.
#11 the gold digger (Link) on 2012-01-24 10:25 (Reply)
This highlights what is wrong with our system of education. Perhaps 10% of high school students "need" algebra at all. They will never use it in their lives and those wasted hours could have been spent on something useful. Furthermore if the effort to teach higher level math was all directed at the 10% who would need it and could learn it they would benefit from it much more then they do today where a classroom in a typical high school progresses at the speed of the dumbest student. Ditto for foriegn languages and advanced English classes. No one in this country "learns" a foriegn language in high school. No one becomes proficient in a foriegn language in high school. It is mostly a complete waste of time and it's continuance is simply a result of the teachers unions not wanting to lose the jobs.
#12 GoneWithTheWind on 2012-01-24 10:39 (Reply)
Guessing the next number if a much more useful skill than algebra II, if you're going to encounter intelligence tests.

Carl Lindholm, Mathematics Made Difficult,

"A great deal of what we learn at school is of little use in later life. This is especially true of mathematics...Number guessing is an exception...."
#13 rhhardin (Link) on 2012-01-24 11:13 (Reply)
Linderholm, not Lindholm
#13.1 rhhardin (Link) on 2012-01-24 11:14 (Reply)
The problem isn't that Algebra II is too difficult--all Japanese high school students are expected to pass it, and on average, they are no more "smarter" than American students. The problem is that American high school students don't arrive with the prior work done so that they can learn Algebra II in high school.
#14 George on 2012-01-24 14:40 (Reply)
Next thing you know, they'll offer courses in economics
#15 KornKing on 2012-01-24 21:50 (Reply)
QUOTE:
Is Algebra ll too difficult for most high schoolers? It's a big debate in California.

I honestly do not know the answer, but it seems basic to me. If you can't master Algebra and Trig, and use them to hone the brain, it's tough for me to figure out how you graduate from high school.


I'd say it depends on what kind of job you want to end up in. Yes, builders and engineers need trig even if all they're going to build is furniture, but lots of other jobs don't. Maybe there should be more than one kind of high school diploma, just as there is more than one kind of college degree.

But I do not apply the same kind of relativism to algebra. If you can't at least compute the interest on a loan, you're not going to be capable of keeping yourself solvent, much less voting intelligently on the tax and bond proposals that are put in front of us every election day (and in my view, this ought to disqualify you from voting; maybe that way, we'd have a Congress who knew that our purse has limits).

QUOTE:
Somewhat related, The College-Degree Mania in Ohio. As Leef says:
[quote]Sorry, governor, but colleges don’t graduate students. Students graduate themselves if their efforts are sufficient, and the sad fact is that many who enroll are so academically weak and unmotivated that they don’t amass enough course credits to get their degrees within six years. That isn’t the fault of the institutions.
[/quote]

It may very well be the fault of the institutions. The state university here in Sacramento finally stopped offering its BA in Accounting after several years in which only a few people could graduate because way too few sections of certain required courses were offered -- in some years none.

I appreciate that it is students' job, once admitted, to do the work and study and do their best to graduate. But the school also has to make it possible. (Not to mention that a low graduation rate may very well mean the college ought to have been more selective when admitting freshmen; my guess is that too much "affirmative action" may have been the real cause of the problem in Ohio. I feel sorry for black people whose high schools may have failed to do their jobs, but it's simply not possible for a college to make up the lack.)
#16 John David Galt on 2012-01-29 00:17 (Reply)

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