Maggie's Farm

And yet Apple has no manufacturing facilities in the US. All products are made in China, Cambodia or Vietnam by three major companies - Foxconn, Inventec and JCY. All three have been investigated for slave labor conditions and pay in addition to human trafficking.

Just sayin'.

So as long as slave labor and conditions are "outsourced" that's a positive thing as you have your iPod and AirMac and iPad high tech electronics - that poor 12 year old putting component boards into the solder wave machine breathing lead fumes and handling hot FR4 composite boards without gloves isn't relevant to the discussion. That is all kind of invisible to you as you listen to Elton John sing "Rocket Man" on your iTouch.

Good to know that your labor sins in other countries can be absolved because you do "good things" here in the US.

Now, you know full well that isn't what I was saying. But if that's how you choose to view it, fine.

I will grant you that I'm not the smartest guy on the face of the planet, sharpest knife in the drawer, brightest bulb in the box, my spelling, grammar and punctuation are atrocious (as BD can attest) and I do have problems comprehending the written word (but I have an excuse for that - I'm a poor reader due to lack of intervention early on for my dyslexia) but exactly how was I to interpret:



I'm less concerned about outsourcing

Back in the day after I left Texaco and moved back to New England, I was hired to develop quality standards for Data General - who at that time was one of the hot up and comers in the mini-computer marketplace. Their entire manufacturing operation was located in Southboro, MA and a large portion of their hands-on labor were Portuguese immigrants from the Marlboro/Clinton/Leominster, Framingham communities. As DG grew, they added a plant in Portsmouth, NH and eventually began moving their manufacturing operations there due to the extreme increases in taxation from the Massachusetts legislature. Our hands on laborers lost their jobs to cheaper labor in NH. It was kind of a mini-outsourcing if you will, but to another state. Those low level manufacturing employees were out of a good paying job with little to no prospects of getting a new one as it just about the time when the entire mini industry was contracting - even DEC was having problems and moved a large part of their operation to NH to reduce costs. So I've seen it first hand and it isn't pretty.

Certainly the poor conditions and treatment of workers are a concern.

Let me try to understand this - as I said I ain't quite right in the head.

Let's accept for the moment that we're all "concerned" about poor conditions and bad worker treatment. Let's also stipulate that, as you said, the products are pure genius, increased productivity and created high paying jobs in the US.

At what point does the "concern" about poor to atrocious treatment of labor equal the value of the product to society? In other words, is it worth ignoring our own principles of freedom, fair play and individuality not to mention the right to assembly as seen in the formation of Unions to protect workers rights just so we can listen to death metal while jogging? Or sitting on our comfortable couches reading the news on our iPads?

High paying jobs are all well and good. My understanding though is that a lot of these high paying jobs are H1B visa employees because Apple (and other high tech organizations) can't find qualified US citizens to fill those jobs. So in a sense, we're also outsourcing our intellectual efforts to citizens of other countries. It's not like H1B visas are immigrants either - the employer has to specifically apply for an H1B visa for any particular foreign employee.

I agree that there are limits to what can be changed. I also agree that not using a particular product because of poor labor conditions isn't practical. I will stipulate that we cannot spite our nose right off of our faces (I love that line from "In Spite of Ourselves").

But (yeah, I know - poor form using but) the concept of Jobs being an "angel" and a High Priest of social responsibility belies the darker underbelly of his company. I would be willing to bet money that you don't even think about the issue of human trafficking or slave labor when you bought your iPod or iTouch.

I have a conceit that I'm at least aware of the problems and I do think about it when I'm considering purchasing something. I do not own an Apple product and I won't use Apple products. That is my personal decision. I do try and purchase products where I can be reasonably certain that the labor involved in producing the products I buy are built by employees who are at least earning a local living wage. I know that is almost impossible, but I do try and research the companies and their manufacturing.

Last, Apple is a highly profitable company - something on the order of 50% profit margin on average across their product line. They clear as much profit as they spend to make the profit including taxes. That is a successful company. Can you honestly say that they cannot build a product or two in the US?

Side Note: I have a very good friend, went to school with me, we worked at Texaco together - our careers were very similar, almost parallel in fact. He worked for Apple as a product designer/engineer when Jobs was brought back into the company. He told me, and I believe him because he does not have the type of personality that exaggerates or embellishes anything, that working at the Cupertino Campus was like working in a prison. Jobs would stalk the hallways always with a scowl on his face, pop into offices and cubicles without warning and if he saw something he didn't like, you were sure to hear about it from him personally - and that wasn't a pleasant experience. He also had a mouth that wasn't very civil.

So take it for what that's worth.

I don't want to Godwin this discussion because I find it tremendously interesting from several perspectives, but isn't what you are saying akin to Italians looking at Mussolini and saying - "Yeah, but he made the trains run on time!"? I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but "Yeah - I know some kids got burned and they now have lung cancer, but dude - that iTouch is WAY cool!!" doesn't seem to me to be a really socially aware concept.

There's a saying among those of us who have gone through substance abuse recovery that goes like this: "Yeah, he's an asshole, but he's a sober asshole". Put another way, you can be a successful innovator and business man, but if you know that you are taking the lives and health of others to be successful, then no amount of glossing over that because you build cool things makes you a humanitarian and somebody to be admired. You can make all the great speeches at college commencements you can fit into your schedule but all your success that you are trying to demonstrate to graduates with all those grandiose words are the net result of feudal peasantry are lies because they are based on the suffering of others.

Is life "fair"? No, it is not fair at all - I'm living proof of it. If life were fair I wouldn't have RA or have obtained a substance abuse problem or lost my job as Texaco because I couldn't go an hour without hitting a bottle or have advanced spinal stenosis and three bulging discs - yeah, life isn't "fair". But the fact that "life isn't fair" doesn't mean that one human being can't be fair to another human being. Life not being fair doesn't mean that you get to treat those who labor for you as slaves and indentured servants without any remorse. Life not being fair does not allow you to be celebrated as being a wonderful human being with amazing insight and ability to solve problems and market your slave made goods to the world.

If you image is based on nothing more than smoke and mirrors, what is your true worth to society? I submit that it is next to zero.

By the way, your story about you and your fellow unemployed neighbors doesn't surprise me at all.

If there was one thing I noticed about corporate engineering was that you had one guy who was perfectly content to get his assignment, sit in his cubicle, do his research, get the job done and wait for the next assignment. The other guy would get his assignment and a couple of days later would pop into the office with an idea that he'd like an extra couple of days to work through a proposal. The majority of engineers were like the first one - the gems were the later ones.

Sad as it is to say, a majority of the unemployed are also like the first one - just waiting to be told what to do or have a job drop into their laps rather than brain storm and network to move on or into a different direction.

We are just not going to agree on this so I'll take a pass on it. I think you are very wrong on this, but at least your honest about how you feel and that counts for something.

As feeblemind points out below, the horrible conditions we are concerned with may actually represent an improvement in some cultures.

Unbelievable. I cannot not conceive how a rational person with all the blessings we have as Americans saying something like that. I am completely at a loss.

{i]I'm not making this judgement here, just putting some perspective on things.[/i]

And that's the problem in a nut shell. I can accept because I have "perspective". We hear that from the left all the time - us conservatives are cretins because we lack "perspective" on the larger picture. We lack the necessary "perspective" to understand the subtle nuances of reality.

I'm sorry man, but I ain't buying it. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong - there ain't no middle ground in which to hide behind "perspective".

And with that I'm taking a Sabbatical from Maggie's Farm - maybe to get some reality based perspective. I cannot believe that I'm the only one who sees exactly what evil is wrought in the name of "perspective" and corporate profit when slave labor and human trafficking are part of the equation and yet the perpetrator is lauded as a national hero because we can jog listening to music.

Y'all take care - happy upcoming holidays to all.

See 'ya around.