Maggie's Farm

Luther,

The hosts of the Farm obviously made a decision in the beginning that they'd not engage debate with the commenters. I don't know how they can resist, myself. If I had a blog, I'd love nothing better than to defend my positions, and... change them because the great commentary we sometimes get. The blog moves much too fast for any decent debate, and that's a shame. The amount of scrollery one has to go through to find a still vigorous debate is a pain.

As to KRW's points - yes, kind of cheap to start a new post on a debate/dialogue that is still festering; as well, it is a rather sleazy way for the original poster to 'enter' the debate: By using another's words. How about some original thinking from the hosts.

"...reality of higher education rather than its lovely facade..."

'lovely facade'. I'll have to read the article now to see how the author manages this stupid statement.
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Garry: " As a player involved in sports, do you not think that it balanced out the academic element of your college experience?"

Would you mind answering this?

No. I do not play competitive sports. I despise the yelling, the anger, the evanescence of it. I enjoy singular sports - kayaking, climbing, and fox hunting. Yes, I am aware I am in a minority, and I have enjoy that, too.

On a campus of 15 thousand students, how many do you think play sports?

At any rate, I'd like to know how sports facilitates learning.

Thanks. Meta
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Thanks, Garry, for your comprehensive and personal response. You nailed it with this:

"Those who have played at a competative level would maybe appreciate those thoughts better than one who hasn't."

Competition does not have to involve a team. Internal competition can be as vigorous as any sport. I prefer mental competition, and that most often is internal competition.

I white water kayak, ski, hunt (fox), climb, mountain bike... While those activities involve others, there is no competition. I do my best because that's how I was raised. I know no other way than to do my best. I have found working with a team to be extremely frustrating because of the varying levels of competence and the satisfaction others have with their incompetence. It drives me nuts to put it bluntly.

No, I do not believe for a minute that sports helps academics. I wish I knew what old thread it was on, but I have a very funny story about my senior year in college when my jock friends found out I was the fastest runner on campus and took modern dance for four years to fill the school's P.E. requirement - shirking their wildness for field hockey and whatever else there was.

Thanks!

Meta
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Great point about the 'working' 30 - 40 hours a week! Exactly.
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Garry,

"I never got/get involved in competing with myself mentally/internally. That's not my game."

If you have an analytical mind, you weigh this with that, compare this with that... and on and on. I don't consider it competing with myself in the least. It is how I think. My mind is also extremely fast at association so metaphor plays a huge part of my thinking. It is a pleasure 97% of the time. When I get an awful song from the 70's looping through my mind, it's not so fun.

I could have played any sport I wanted as I have been blessed with coordination and whatever else it is that earned me the number one spot in the physical fitness tests we had to take in New York state where I went to high school. Beginning my 9th grade year I won top honors over 10th, 11th, 12th grades and kept it up. Athletics Summa Cum Laude. :) To use my favorite expression: I did not give a rat's ass.

Ironically, both my children chose singular sports, and I cannot tell you how relieved I was that I did not have to attend any games. My son is a pro mountain biker, road racer, a cross rider. Both were in ROTC in high school, and with PT, they were in good shape for their future endeavors - which match mine.

I believe there are individuals who have no need for competition. The few times I found myself 'competing' for anything, I got disgusted and took over whatever we were competing for and got it done. It's just the way I work, and in most cases, my natural ability to size up the problem and figure it out was very much appreciated. I don't mean to sound snotty at all. When you think about it, life is competition from the time you're born until you die. I just don't 'feel' it as competition. My mind troubleshoots with ease, if that's a better way to describe it.

Night!
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Garry - forgot to mention this and it struck me when I read it.

You were an Air Traffic Controller. Nice mind you have there. Your mind is one of the sharpest out there, so I know you're just rhetorically jousting for the most part trying to convince us what Gringo basically dissected for us into pure logical rat's assery.

:}

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Gag. You made me go read that article. Those NRO people are prima donnas. Anyway, here:

From the NRO piece:

“One surprise in the Winters piece is that he apparently is unfamiliar with the fact that colleges are already graduating large numbers of people who can't find work other than the kinds of jobs that are learned just through some on-the-job training.”

And our current unemployment rate is what??

“The trouble is that colleges are more interested in keeping students content than in forcing them through the "boot camp" many badly need. For example, rigorous criticism of student writing is mostly a thing of the past because few professors want to fight the "How dare you say that my writing isn't good!" battle.”

Prove it.

“If students who graduate from high school today were as well educated as high-school grads (and maybe even 8th graders) of a century ago, “

Right. And the syllabus for each class today is the exact same as it was 100 years ago, and the NEA has refused to allow ANY new knowledge in ANY discipline to be added to today’s curriculum. A century ago, the NEA said, “This is where we stop knowledge.”

“Getting K-12 (sorry, now it's P-12, isn't it?) to work better is very hard because the education establishment likes things just as they are, especially with teacher-licensure requirements...”

Teacher-licensure is difficult. Look it up: I can’t remember all the tests a would be teacher must pass in order to be hired. There is probably no other organization in this country that works harder to find new ways of teaching to match the fast-paced information flow and the plethora of studies done in the last twenty years on how students learn. The NEA doesn’t have a thing to do with this. As for firing a bad teacher, it’s done every year. Where do people get the idea that schools can’t fire a teacher?

“Nor have I ever seen anyone from the establishment camp acknowledge that standards and expectations at many schools are so low that students often graduate without having to improve on the human capital they took from high school. Winters, as Robert notes, writes as if the typical student's college experience is one of high intellectual engagement that significantly adds to his human capital, giving him "knowledge and skills that employers prize." That's true for some, but for many others, college is mostly an extended vacation.”

First point: Not the students’ fault. If the school has low standards, U.S. News & World Report will tell on them. Someone needs to report those bastions of higher education that have low standards.

Second point: So? If Johnny wants to party, that’s his business. Why is this guy whining about something that has been going on since the one-room school house days?

“If you think about the reality of higher education rather than its lovely facade, you have to drop the belief that we need to send more students to college”

What lovely facade? With these guys who use qualifiers such as “many”, “some”, and “most” in writing these ridiculous diatribes about how bad education is, and with Maggie’s Farmers poo-pooing education at every gratuitous opportunity, that ‘lovely facade’ is busted. Busted, I tell you.

Do not go to college because many, some, and most of you students are too dumb. Just like your parents.

OH WAIT!! Do go to college for the sports! It's great because the entire student-party-body will come out and boost your self-esteem by screaming their guts out for you.

:)
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Marianne,

Yes. Always do my best when I feel good. Chocolate cake works for me. I have also done some of my best work of my life during periods of clinical depression. My natural tendency to think analytically increases during bouts of depression. The brain rules!
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