We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.
Our Recent Essays Behind the Front Page
Friday, February 8. 2008
Display comments as (Linear | Threaded)
You will never hear any of this in a Barack Hussein Obama speech. I think that the poor guy is starting to believe his own propaganda.
Democracies are not limited. What the people want, the people get. Good and hard.
Republics ....we have a republican form of government, not a democratic form.
If you can't get the nomenclature correct then you can't even define the problem.
I'm with you. Just had a running discussion on another thread regarding the essentail differences. The distinctions apparantly too subtle for the condescending, cornpone counterparty in said discussion.
Here's a good definition - Marilyn vos Savant
"Both Democrats and Republicans alike believe in modern "democracy", a concept of government in which the important policy decisions are directed by a majority of the adult citizens. Likewise, they both believe in the modern "republic", a form of government in which the head of state is not a monarch, and the ruling power resides in the citizens entitled to vote, exercised by elected officials who are accountable to them and who govern according to law. A democracy may not be a republic, and a republic may not be a democracy. However, our country is both: a democratic republic (or a republican democracy.)"
Democracy is the means by which US Republic legislates and adjudicates it's laws.
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
American Heritage Dictionary
"DEMOCRACY - That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 432.
Please, please ...prior to building your presentation on Blackstone read the follow. It is essential if you do not want to forever be misinformed.
Democracy vs. Republic Essential differences
I cited two American dictionary definitions but haven't presented anything from Blackstone.
" These two forms of government: Democracy and Republic, are not only dissimilar but antithetical , reflecting the sharp contrast between (a) The Majority Unlimited, in a Democracy, lacking any legal safeguard of the rights of The Individual and The Minority, and (b) The Majority Limited, in a Republic under a written Constitution safeguarding the rights of The Individual and The Minority; as we shall now see.
None of the defintions offered describe our republic. They define democracy and are peculiar in their failure to discuss a constitution which of course will become meaningless in a democracy. The defintion has changed over the years and the distinctions have become blurred but the founders understood the difference all too well. As mentioned before, democracies are unlimited and give the majority what they have been convinced thay want regardless of any remnant of fundamental law protecting the rights of individuals or minorities. The state, as the embodiment of the 'general will' has no reason to be limited in a democracy. The majority is always right, even as they direct that members of a minority be loaded on cattle cars and sent to re-education camps or worse.
In the piece I sited it gives specific examples of the thinking of Madison writing in the Federalist Papers and in Jefferson's "Notes on Virgina".
These example were to aid in clarifying our form of government vs democracy.
I would be interested to read your thinking behind your thesis that NONE of the definitions describe our republic.
Where are the failures to do so?
I applaud your insertion of Rousseau's "General Will" into
the debate the framers of our Constitution had but not to the extent of others, Locke, Montesquieu, Burke, Hobbes,Aristotle.
Always good to get your input I'm just a bit askew on your statement , with the notable exception :
"The definition has changed over the years and the distinctions have become blurred but the founders understood the difference all too well. "
That is unfortunately all to true, I am sure to both our chagrin.
Habu- Sorry. What you cite explains the differences and the thinking of the founders who understood what they were attempting in light of their distrust of 'democracy' classicaly defined. What bothers me is the contemporary definition of 'democracy' being used to describe our constitutional system of defined powers as somehow meaningful. If words have meaning, keeping in mind those who wish to destroy the law by deconstructing language and history, they should be used as defined historically. The word is commonly used incorrectly and my belief is that it's done intentionally by some in the cause of weakening the constitution and the checks it places on governmental power as we transition to a purely administartive and bureaucratic state which is seen as embodying the 'general will'. If the people come to believe that this is a democracy they will ignorantly stand aside it occurs since they believe it to be the will of the people. In a democracy, tyranny can be easily rationalized while in a republic of law it cannot.
Still smokin' that libertarian junk, my boy?
Democracy, the profoundly good, is also the profoundly productive. President Reagan, January 11, 1989.
Son, you are too much. Seeing libertarianism in classical liberalism makes you an almost perfect dim-wit. Good luck with your quote mining.
Y'all's inability to address the classical American definition and usage is noted, daddy.
Countering with an infantile definition - mob rule, o lord help us, pins you with the cola, jack.
George Bush knows what y'all obviously cannot fathom.
The roots of our democracy can be traced to England, and to its Parliament -- and so can the roots of this organization.
Our commitment to democracy is tested in countries like Cuba and Burma and North Korea and Zimbabwe -- outposts of oppression in our world.
President at the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy
United States Chamber of Commerce
November 6, 2003
Look like some nice words but unfortunately they bump up against reality and lose.
We live in a relatively open society which means we have many soft spots for our enemies, foreign and domestic to target. Therefore it takes a hard ,keen, and vigilant population to allow freedoms avenues to remain open. We no longer have that composition in sufficient numbers in our demographic makeup.
You can't yell fire in a crowded theater but you can get government money in Boston to help build a mosque for a philosophy that wants to either rule or kill us. No one is stopping it. Universities and municipalities ban the military but build footbaths for Islmo- fascists.
We're way past conversation about government usurpation of power. Kelo vs. New London cemented that.
The citizens of this country, like citizens of ALL countries throughout history will continue to see a dimmunition of their "freedoms" because they have been looking at the government to grant them those freedoms. Governments constrict freedoms, they don't enlarge them.
Well they are already granted to us but we've allowed their erosion beyond retrieval. It will take a war to return them to us. That's not going to happen either because we now have powerful factions that would gladly roll a tank into your living room, a la Waco.
We have achieved governmental dhimmitude whereby if the average citizen were to attempt to carry a weapon in say DC or NYC they would be arrested , the Second Amendment be damned.
Here's a laughable line from above:
Government must not try to run people's lives or usurp the roles and responsibilities of families, religious beliefs, and other character-and-culture-forming authoritative communities
Tell me what aspect of your life the government does not ultimately run right now? They run it all. You can't buy toothpaste without the government having been involved somewhere along the line. All this talk of losing our freedoms is a joke...they've been on life support for over 100 years, and soon the big hand of government is going to unplug that life support machine.
The list is long and bountiful of lost liberties. So what are ya gonna do about it? Nothing. And isn't it a pity.
But almost, it seems, an inevitable consequence of any long lived organization... most especially governments. I suppose a cancer analogy would be a bit strong... but perhaps not.
Marilyn vos Savant may have a huge IQ but so did Einstein, who failed high school algebra.. bedlimit
She meets the same fate in her above definition which is grossly distorted by it's compression of the differences.
I'm also simply going to let it go. Too many of our citizens couldn't tell you night from day, much less discuss what form of government they live under.
I'm confident most contributors to MF have the usual compliment of friends. Just as an experiment ask them, when the opportunity presents itself, what type of goverment we have. I'm confident 90+% will say without much hesitation, "a democracy"... hell, the word "democracy or democratic" is not even mentioned in Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.
That's why we're in the position we're in now...people want to talk about "rights" and "freedoms" and they don't even know the form of government they live under or why. And when you inform them, some want to argue about it. It's truly pitiful.
But not to worry because the incubation period for our nascent socialism is about to birth full blown, big time socialism. The collapse of the current economy will be governments final push to socialize everything. FDR tried but the current pack of Democrats will finish the job ..and most of America will fully embrace it.
The first two American parties since the establishment of US Constitution were the Federalist and the Democratic-Republican Party.
Democratic-Republican Party was founded by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.
Three US Presidents from Democratic-Republican Party were elected in a democratic manner, James Monroe and forementioned founders.
Hell, the word trinity isn't in the Bible but Holy Trinity is the God Who inspired it's writing.
Trust me you're not educated enough to argue (with me) this democracy point you keep pushing and I'm not going to try and educate you. If you choose to do enough reading into the Constitutional Convention and the creation of our republic then you can cease being as publically ignorant as you seem determined to be.
You are doing an executive level job at openly displaying how uninformed you are on this topic and I guess that counts for something.
Here fix this for us while you're redefining who we are.
Pledge of Allegiance
I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
one nation under God,
with liberty and justice for all.
Y'all might find it interesting the Pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a 19th century socialist.
"Under God" was added by democratic majority vote of Congress and signed into law by President Eizenhower.
It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time: "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm
What a marvelous example of democracy in action y'all have proffered.
Thank you, Habu.
Habu dude .... ease back a bit ..... did the maid starch your shorts again?
Thats right you go commando ..we'll bro just ease back anyways. Iff'n ya don't I'll be hav'n ta tell about yo days over at the other place.
I'm eas'n down ta da bog.. Ms HoneySuckle Tater say hey.