We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.
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Tuesday, January 8. 2008
Quoted from Dr. Bob:
Painful? Kinda-sorta. Read the whole thing.
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Painful? Yep. Just reading that crap was painful as hell.
I wasn't born a 'sorry ass', I've never been a 'sorry ass', and I'm damn certain I'm not a son-of-a-bitch.
I don't need a 'get-out-jail-card', thank you, and grace comes as naturally to me as breathing as I have empathy and act on it.
He misspelled 'whose' up in that quoted piece.
where? i don't see ''whose'' mispelled anywhere -- and i LIKE finding grammer & spelling mistakes
The error has been edited. What a sweet blog!
"...this crazy guy who has already footed the bill ..."
The current 'who has' was 'whose'.
Thought I'd give'm time to notice; copy editors missed sonofabitch.
It was a good post. Will be interested to read what he has to say about grace. Some amazingly grace filled people in my life over the years, but feeling as mired as he describes right now. All that stuff St. Paul wrote about in Romans 7:
"4We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"
Believer or scoffer, can any honest person assert that they do not feel like this? We look to the stars and stumble in the dust... Or is it just parents of teenagers who, despite years of trying to be good enough parents, wonder sometimes if perhaps daddy crocodiles have the right idea about what to do with the young....
I've spent a lot of time during my now rather long life up in front of a Judge Judy while getting the variety of raps against me dismissed. So I appreciate the good Dr.'s post and his language. I will pass it along to a much younger generation of sorry asses. And, by the way, sorry asses can thrive in Cambridge, Manhattan, Evanston, Georgetown or San Franciso, et al. And most usually do. And most that I know have advanced degrees--it comes with the sheepskins.
me too, john -- always surrounded by critics. finally one day i just quit listening to them -- and life has been great ever since! Lonesome, but GREAT!
"...can any honest person assert that they do not feel like this?"
Like what? That you have no control over waging war against some mystical sin that inhabits your being like a life-long parasite?
The only way sin takes over is if you give it power.
M, if you are always in perfect control of yourself and your language, if you live up to your ideals 24/7, if you treat everyone around you graciously, you have my admiration. But I thought that only Mary Poppins was practically perfect in every way!
well, 'perfect' is an odd concept. for example, living with Mary Poppins would make me & everyone i know want to commit suicide. so how she be perfect?
conversely, a miserable, worn-out old bum makes everyone else feel just great about themselves. so, maybe he's more perfect than Mary?
Hi, Buddy, I think I make a lot of people feel really good about themselves....kind of like the bad example dog in obedience school....It was in the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus said that about Be Ye Perfect. Daunting. Found this just now, nobody I've read before, but brief and helpful on this topic: http://www.baptistarticles.com/Article/Be-Ye-Perfect/127 An interesting take on being perfect (not for the faint of heart).
got it -- on my desktop now, R -- and thanks -- will read closely soon as Brit Hume tells me wazzup in New Hampshire -- !
Sanctification? Hell Bob, I'm justified by the blood of the lamb and I be---lieve (I believe, I believe, I believe) in eternal security. Sanctification just sounds like a lot of work and I'm lazy, so it doesn't make any sense to dress up my resume when the heavenly digs are already mine.
ha --perfect example of Judao/Christian difference right there between #6.1.1 and #7 -- active, mystical, aspirational, hot Christian attitude, contrasted to humorous, remote, ironic, cool Jewish attitude. Gosh i love us Judao/Christians -- we gots the mojo fer sher!
Sheesh -- looks like Leag gets his wish -- Mitt clobbered, and Hillary winning. Hope he's right she's easier to beat in the general. This is depressing as hell.
Not quite on.
Muslim Senator would be just as easy but not as much fun.
Fred knows how to put old mares out to pasture, sanctified wholly.
Fred didn't even register on the scale in NH -- wot gives wit dat ? i hope it's not a case of anti-southerener.
Me thinks, Fred doesn't dance with political cross-dressers.
Hampster primary is a sad B movie but not without humor.
Sanctification doesn't take there, as with some poor self- satisfied Maggie heads.
There is a long way to go before anyone is nominated.
Republicans should nominate a good Christian conservative, not too proud for sanctifying grace.
As to the original focus of this post, and sorry to digress... but, Bob makes me gag. Quite literally. I mean after all, I have led a pretty good 'golden rule' life. My worst moment wouldn't deserve one line in a current 'People' issue.
At eleven years old I pretty much thought that the whole premise was a crock of shit, warmed over for two thousand years. And what the hell did JC suffer anyway... a few days of pain... and then a resurrection than put him right back next to his daddy's ass. Sitting all nice and pretty watching his little master plan at work. Millions of lives ruined because his little egotistical ass wants everyone to go through him to get to his dad. Asshole.
I mean, suck it up folks, Jesus can't do it all for you. Hold off on the self pity and remonstrations of piety. If religion is required for you to hold your life together and 'be' a good person... perhaps a little deeper look is required.
Jesus has to love Luther -- Luther too has offered his life for his fellows -- in the jungles of southeast asia -- defending against the godless communism. If a guy comes out of extended tours as a frontline combat squad leader, and then has a lifelong distaste for high and mighty concepts of glory, i say, let him talk -- and maybe listen to him a little. just my 2 centavos.
The poor lad may "talk" himself to hells damnation and Jesus will love him with longsuffering.
But notice his lifelong distain came a blinding revelation at age eleven.
A dime, buddy.
some people just cannot cope with the magic, Leag. the supernatural is just too great a leap. are they damned, regardless of what they do on earth ?
Damnation is a reward for what is done on earth, buddy.
Justification is within every souls grasp for the work of santification.
justification is precisely what i wuz talking about, Leag.
Thanks Buddy... I do happen to think that Jesus and I would get along just fine should we ever meet. I mean, he did rail against the 'rulers' did he not. I am quite sure he would appreciate my thoughts, even if he did not agree with them. I certainly don't think he would send me to hell for them. Otherwise he would prove my point.
''Otherwise he would prove my point''
yes -- i can see that -- hmm....
CS Lewis maintained that all the doors of hell were locked - from the inside.
The need of (some) nonbelievers to put their objections to Christ and Christians in language intended to insult weakens their argument. Not on grounds of logic, in which phrasing is not usually relevant, but in raising the immediate question of non-logical motives having crept in.
"...but in raising the immediate question of non-logical motives having crept in."
Or how much earnest Christian sanctimony has made its intrusive war into one's striving for logical thought.
Yeah.... That's most probably it. Christian sanctimony.
C.S. Lewis would know about hell. He was an atheist most of his life 'til those Christian sancties got him. It was a miracle!
Here is a great collection of quotes on atheism http://www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/atheismquotes.htm
A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion. --Francis Bacon
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.--C.S. Lewis
If God were small enough to be understood, He would not be big enough to be worshiped. --Evelyn Underhill
Those who believe they believe in God but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God himself. --Madeleine L'Engle
We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God’s existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith. --Unknown
God is not discoverable or demonstrable by purely scientific means, unfortunately for the scientifically minded. But that really proves nothing. It simply means that the wrong instruments are being used for the job. - J.B. Phillips
A god who let us prove his existence would be an idol. --Deitrich Bonhoeffer
If we were to judge nature by common sense or likelihood, we wouldn't believe the world existed. --Annie Dillard
Understanding God is not attained by calling into session all arguments for and against Him, in order to debate whether He is a reality or a figment of the mind. God cannot be sensed as a second thought, as an explanation of the origin of the universe. He is either the first and the last, or just another concept. --Abraham Joshua Heschel
God, I love it when someone proves my point!
ok, THAT starts an infinite regression. proving your point also disproves it. to wit, if faith obstructs logic, then logic must obstruct faith, else, without reciprocals, all would be logic, or all would be faith.
what i mean is, whence cometh the faith in the logic ?
so there is faith in something after all.
maximally reduced, it has to be faith in the orderliness (system power law) of the universe.
IOW logic depends on something to maintain that perceived orderliness of the universe.
so, infinite regression -- depends on what ?
it is nameless, you say ?
ok, what if you want to name it ?
what would you name it ?
if you name it ''nature'' you say it is unaware of what it does.
if you name it ''God'' you say it is aware of what it does.
How can we know which ?
look at us. are we aware of what we do ? yes of course -- what we do is the very definition of our awareness of anything at all.
yet in a mere three degrees of separation, we are no longer aware of "all" we do. ripples i mean.
so in a universe of infinite degrees of separation, what even can ''aware'' mean ?
My God, we are pitiful.
Brave not pitiful, Buddy. A little lower than the angels...in the image of God...or as the old ad said "God doesn't make junk!". You are eloquent, Buddy.
Brave but unlike angels, needy. the animal nature introduces irony -- that the more we have, the less we need, and the less we need, the further we can choose to move away from the source of supply.
"...ok, THAT starts an infinite regression."
No it doesn't, Budly. (I just made you into an adverb in honor of your philosophical musings on behalf of my gloating. :)
Retriever proved my declaration about Christian sanctimony becoming the cause of 'some' people using certain language in talking about their perception of Christianity, Jesus, writers of Christian dogma, etc. Not everyone who has been the target of Christian sanctimony says, after an assault: "Oh, my."
Some people get mad and use no-no words - like bad old Luther.
I do have a question maybe Retriever can answer. It's in reference to "God doesn't make junk!"
The question is ... Why did he make Islamic terrorists? And skinny, homeless black people in Africa? (They are considered 'junk' by most of the world it seems, and most definitely by their leaders.) Yeah, I realize they made themselves, but man is man, after all, and.... in the image of God.
well, shoot, time for lunch. otherwise i'd answer that.
Y'all probably meant old, bad Luther.
But have it your way.
If'n he is bad before him be old it might be a childish indiscretion, and does not merit beheading.
No small amount of pyschogogy may be in order but standing still could be to much fer'm, too.
yes -- "standing still could be to much fer'm" is a lifetime sentence for many --most -- maybe all -- of our nation's blooded frontline defenders.
Appreciate ya covering me backside, mita.
Caution, as the ass a sins lurk there to.
Buddy check: assasins.
Leag, Johnny Cash has a message 4 U:
no, honey dumpling, it's my message to your face.
i take that back -- no need to be mean just because you like to irritate the peasants. cheers --you're a big part of today's blog entertainment, how can i treat you shabbily -- bad me.
Re: God doesn't make junk
After an exhausting day at work, and sick with worry about one deeply disturbed kid, and stress readying others for college, my first response to Meta's question is to cite the verse that gives me hope every day of my life : John 3:16. " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'
God made it all, God directs it all, God loves it all. Even Islamic terrorists. And certainly starving people worldwide. But we humanoids think we set it all in motion, think we are in charge, and tear each other to pieces, then blame God. Like a pack of brats fighting in the back of the car and whining "It's Mom and Dad's fault, they made us the way we are....". Or else posture "WE BAD>>>WE THE MOTHERS OF THE HOOD!" and ignore the fact that we are completely dependent on the parents we love to spit in the eye of....
Parents make a baby and have an enormous impact on that child. But whether that chlld becomes Albert Schweitzer or Hitler depends ultimately on that child, not the parents. Is it such a stretch to see an analogy with God and how we respond to His gracious gifts to us?
We believers sometimes manage to do for love what compulsion and fear could never accomplish in us...that was what I think was behind Dr. X's remark in her piece on personality disorders that only people who make a commitment to and are changed by God seem to get over them.
Many people (and it sounds as if Meta is one of them) have been put off by the failings of us religious folk, perhaps badly treated, and ever since enraged at religious hypocrites. As I tiresomely repeat to near and dear ones (who despise my Christian faith, citing my mulititudinous failings and sins), "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven..." My other tired phrase is "If you think I am a bad advertisement for Christianity, you have no idea how much worse of a jerk I was before I put my trust in God...."
It is the experience of God's forgiveness, and God's grace, totally undeserved yet illuminating, that wins and sometimes renews our hearts. Like most people in love, the faithful can be jackasses, bores, and insensitive to those who do not share their enthusiasm. But please realize that the process of sanctification is not about feeling holy or perfect or better than, but rather the relief of admitted sinners who have been given a second chance. We don't have to Photoshop ourselves for God. We know that God loves us as we are, but loves us too much to leave us that way. We feel (and to the uncharitable look) like junk. But God sees the statue hidden within the rough block, the plant about to burst from the dried up seed, the spring in the desert. It's about hope. It's about having spent part of one's lifetime with clenched fists, braced against attack, then to have been showered with love, welcomed, ransomed, healed, restored, forgiven. And to be asked only to reach out to the outstretched hand of our Lord and then in love to a broken and chaotic world. And then to pick up the pace, because He knows we are capable of so much more...
If you find this mindless drivel, Meta, my apologies. One woman's spiritual meat may be another's poison.
Beautifully written and notably sincere, Retriever.
I hope your son does okay.
Thanks M and Ml. The nightmare of kid's illness recurring is all but swallowing me up again, and yakking online with you all is a welcome break from trying to pin down overworked kiddie shrinks who hate to admit that nothing can be done except elephant tranquillizer. I feel like one of those people in the NT, desperately dragging themselves or their dear one after JC hollering at Him for healing, when all the science and medicine and money in the world have not helped, but rather the sufferer is worse. Am being horribly demanding and bitchy to the other kids at a time when they need support, needing them to succeed, excel, so they can escape and make somethng of themselves. It's as if I were a mother bird with a cuckoo interloper, and have to tell my own hatchlings "get out before he pecks you to death!". To push them away to save them from the dangerous one! A horrible path. One loves them all yet must seem unfair to try and limit damage!
none of my business, but is it schizophrenia ? what you describe seems like it. to a layman anyway. it's known to be destructive in the way you describe.
Bl, I've wondered about that. At one time or another in the last ten years he's had as many diagnoses. Not that one yet tho.. The meds are the same, just symptom reducing,
Even the good shrinks have too little time to spend w kid, and withhold their opinions, tend to treat parents as the problem, so one feels under a spotlight not supported. We recently got access to some ten year old intake files on kid where Md speculated and diagnosed kid with labels we had wondered to him about and Md had lied to us and said were not applicable. Enough to make you paranoid!
Church helps him more than medicine.
But we hedge our bets, praying that God will guide his hitherto mostly clueless shrinks. There have been 2 good ones who wd have been more help if he had had an hour once a week with them, instead of 15 minute meds checks every 3 months and therapy w a sweet but less smart psychologist.
You get what you pay for! Or what your HMO rations you and availability of specialists allow.
I have great respect for many adult psychiatrists, but the kiddie ones are too few and too beleaguered and tend not to be fully honest w parents [I guess because they treat so many victims of abuse that they do not usually assume good things about parents]. Hard on loving parents!
maybe time passage is all you have -- a ''wait-out'' for nature to make a change for the better. to outgrow the symptoms IOW.
To second Buddy.... Time.
Hold on until after the girls leave for school and then watch.
In the meantime, check out the work of Frank Sulloway. It may ease you considerably, and best - it's off the beaten path of 'medicine'.
Amazing line with 'cuckoo interloper' ref.....
Back from a pleasant evening at church...
Meta, hadn't hear of Sulloway, but his work looks interesting.
BL, autism is part of it, We feel like we are shooting Rodents of Unusual Size in "Princess Bride" at times, not sure what will pop up when or where! One day something we do will work beautifully and one goes to sleep feeling like Supermom, the next one gets everything wrong, and one fantasizes about checking into the bin for a respite, as those exhausted Irish mothers described in Angela's Ashes did...
well, i bow deeply to your dedication and love -- and pray all will be well someday --