Maggie's FarmWe are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for. |
Our Recent Essays Behind the Front Page
Categories
QuicksearchLinks
Blog Administration |
Monday, July 31. 2023Monday morning linksMan who spent $14K to transform himself into collie steps out for first-ever walk in public " . In the U.S., the EPA’s own ‘Heat Wave Index’ for the continental states shows that the 1930s was by far the hottest decade of the last century.” Magic Mushrooms. LSD. Ketamine. The Drugs That Power Silicon Valley. The Return of MDMA - Some doctors are itching to prescribe ecstacy again. How do we avoid the regulatory mistakes of the '80s? Neuroscientists shed new light on the roots of interpersonal neural synchrony during social interactions Scrappy local paper takes on San Francisco's homeless-industrial complex What History Teaches Us About the Importance of Academic Freedom - This 1949 primer shows us there’s nothing new about today’s controversies about free speech on campus. How big tech and big money made our schools go woke Does Ukraine really have a neo-Nazi problem? US officials won’t say " By allowing Ukraine to get involved in a conflict with Russia, Zelensky committed one of the greatest lunacies that can be perpetrated by a head of state. "
Trackbacks
Trackback specific URI for this entry
No Trackbacks
Comments
Display comments as
(Linear | Threaded)
" By allowing Ukraine to get involved in a conflict with Russia, Zelensky committed one of the greatest lunacies that can be perpetrated by a head of state. " Money and power seems to be the only motivation some need to destroy anything in their path to achieving both money and power. If the end is near, doesn't Zelensky own a house in Miami or so the rumor goes? The remaining folks will just have to suffer the consequences of the failed policies of those involved in throwing the war in Ukraine. Isn't that the way it always is?
"Although by now, more blood had been spilled in Ukraine than in all European conflicts since WWII combined, the organization “committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes” showed no readiness to discuss a peaceful resolution of the conflict."
Zelensky is a hapless boob who brings a wealth of useful experience to the table for his first government job - just like Hunter Biden's Burisma gig. But it's unfair to lay this mess at his feel, solely. These events have been scripted largely by the USA, largely by Victoria Nuland and her cohorts in the Intelligence community and State Department, going back to their active role in the Color Revolution in 2014. They apparently believe - and they might be right - that people have never heard of peace talks before, and don't remember the scores of other conflicts in which the calls for peace talks and cease fires have commenced almost as soon as the atrocities begin. Not this time, though. The altruistic, high-minded diplomats over at the UN, who exhort us to contribute endlessly to support the fight against world suffering, have instead been watching the US and NATO shovel cash and armaments to fuel the Ukraine's stand against a former superpower, without the need for audit or due diligence. Awesome, that's the word to describe our leaders. The guilty party is Russia, which attempted to invade Ukraine on 24 February 2022 in order to overthrow its government.
This was a singularly spectacular failure, as has been the subsequent "special military operation" so far. All else is sophistry. With respect, the entire conversation is fraught with 'snapshot' syndrome and strawman arguments.
don't pretend to be an expert. But: Who on this planet is saying that anybody doesn't have the right to defend their own country? Nobody is; It's a Bad Faith, strawman argument. Similarly, ad hominem arguments that anybody that opposes US support of the conflict is a 'Putin Stooge'. Nice try. Who really thinks this is just about a Russian invasion started a couple of years ago, with no historical context, completely isolated from past events? Well... we're encouraged to think this way - a snapshot. The same way snapshots are used to advance climate change arguments, by conveniently eliminating data which conflicts, outside the frame. James Baker III, SOS when the Soviet Union collapsed, communicated that NATO would never advance, and that Soviet territory would never be threatened. That was a US policy promise, with NATO agreement. Did it happen? Is NATO encroachment irrelevant to Russian security? An honest answer is 'No' to both. These events are part of the situation. NATO is still advancing on Russia, almost 40 years later. Is it wrong for the US to meddle in the national politics of other countries? I would say, 'not necessarily', as this is part and parcel of international strategic relations. But the 2014 meddling with the Color Revolution is particularly heavy-handed and odious to me, as it disrespected the constitutional authority of Ukrainian elections. We would be boiling mad if it happened here. The point is, the Ukrainian mess is at least partly our doing (US and NATO), not just the Russians. There's a grudge match aspect of this that is being ignored, and it shouldn't be. And our leadership in the armaments supply is at our own direct strategic disadvantage, and can only advance more hostility there. Ukraine ain't gonna win outright. Russia might not win, outright. But their manufacturing base will outrun anything the Ukraine can put forward, as the US depletes its own supply. Don't forget, it was the Russians and their manufacturing capacity that withstood a German siege and won WWII How do you feel about your kids or grandkids dying there? Because they already are. I think it's wrong. Over the next couple of months, I think the US supply chain is going to run out of stock. We're already shipping cluster munitions over, something we have called a 'war crime' in the past when others do it. When we run out of an ability to supply, then the calls for peace will start. A stupid strategy from a position of weakness. That's what I forecast from our genius State Department. We shall see. I think China is the bigger threat, by a lot. It's not that simple. There are many talking heads that are either pro-Ukraine or anti-Ukraine and their comments and claims are all in on that position. The truth lies somewhere in-between. The most popular anti-Ukraine position is that Ukraine is corrupt and has been unfair to Russians in parts of Ukraine and has been belligerent towards Russia so therefore they deserve to be invaded. But for the millions of Ukrainains who had no part in any of these things they remain unwilling to be invaded. You have to kind of agree that we wouldn't welcome China invading us and killing our people just because Joe Biden is corrupt and had done stupid things
The bottom line is Russia did invade and Ukraine has the right to defend itself. All the other arguments are politics. "The bottom line is Russia did invade and Ukraine has the right to defend itself. All the other arguments are politics."
In a nutshell. Ok. How about the estimated 14,000 ethnic Russians killed by indiscriminate shelling since 2014 in North East Ukraine? Anyone thinking that they were just going to sit by and allow the persecution of their brothers indefinitely doesn't know anything about Russian history. This notion in Western media that Putin just woke up one morning and decided to invade Ukraine on a whim is dangerously naive.
That was an ongoing dispute between both sides. The way you framed it made it appear to be a persecution of innocent people. Russia did inflame that situation all along exactly so they could justify an invasion. I don't know who is right or wrong in that part of this conflict, I feel bad for both sides, the innocents. But there were a lot of agitators involved to keep that argument hot.
I'm afraid you're wasting your time with that one.
He's a Kremlin-bot.
#3.1.1.1.1
JJM
on
2023-07-31 20:13
(Reply)
Regarding people getting all bent out of shape about some Ukrainians using the Totenkopf skull-and-bones symbol on their uniforms, the insignia has a long history of usage among European military units back to the 19th Century, way before the German Nazis appeared on the scene.
I have seen video of a Ukrainian funeral where some attendees are wearing actual Nazi SS uniforms from the second world war complete with the swastika armband. They also have a version of their national flag that is black and red instead of blue and gold. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along...
If you look back at the pictures taken in Charlottsville during the riots you will see numerous people carrying the Confederate battle flag and they all still had the folds in them from being wrapped for sale. My point is that a bunch of agitators were given brand new flags to carry and wave around to create a more tense situation (Feds). Ditto for the Tiki torches. So why then, would any Ukrainians wear the Nazi symbol??? Paid agitators to make Ukraine look bad. Once you see it you can't unsee it. It is just incredibly sad that our own government/the left have stooped to using communist tactics too.
Kremlin threatens to nuke Ukraine over Moscow drone strike
The Kremlin today bluntly threatened use of nuclear weapons in the wake of the Ukrainian drone strike on Moscow's skyscraper zone. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12353145/Ukraine-drone-strikes-Moscow-shutting-Russian-airspace-damaging-buildings-close-Kremlin.html Will they do it? Disney’s dire year at the box office continues with its latest $150 million flop bombing even harder than expected
Haunted Mansion failing to even match pre-release expectations that weren’t exactly all that great to begin with. https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/disney-s-dire-year-at-the-box-office-continues-with-its-latest-150-million-flop-bombing-even-harder-than-expected/ar-AA1ewrQo Photos Show Barack Obama Playing Golf With Bandaged Hand, Black Eye
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2023/07/30/photos-show-barack-obama-playing-golf-with-bandaged-hand-black-eye-n1714645 Now imagine if Trump's chef was found dead near his mansion in Mar-a-Lago.
QUOTE: NATO is an active and leading contributor to peace and security on the international stage. It promotes democratic values and is committed to the peaceful resolution of disputes. Just what are democratic values? Here in America, democratic values are state controlled power, with a huge helping of LGBTQ+. Forced vaccinations. Unreliable, hugely subsidized green energy. A national police force that is used to inflict severe harm to those that do not toe the democrat party line. Unlimited debt and inflation caused by fiat currency. A geriatric representative class; unclear whom they actually represent. A nationalized education system that has produced dumber and dumber students since its inception. A education system that calls math racist, which is just the tip of the iceberg for dysfunction - they seem to be more interested in sexualizng three year olds than anything else. Gender confusion. A woke corporate class of billionaires that work hand in hand with government to enforce their agenda (just don’t call it fascism). Dysfunctional inner cities, where crime, homelessness , litter and graffiti are the norm; where career criminals and let loose on society. A society of white patriarchy, who wake up everyday with the sole purpose of ‘sticking it’ to people of color - so we are told. A society of drunks and druggies, that allow an open border, that a neighboring country’s criminal cartel fully controls, which allows for enough fentanyl and other narcotics to kill every American many times over. An open border that allows for human trafficking. Where right is left, up is down and freedom is being a slave to the state. That is just a partial list. I’m just getting started. Who in their right mind would want those values? Just one more observation: Since the inception of NATO, there has been almost nonstop continuous worldwide conflicts. Nothing new under the sun, but they say they are for promoting peace. I don't have anything bad to say about MDMA. It got caught up in the anti-drub anti-crack backlash of the 80s. It's non-addictive and has some potentially helpful effects. It's seems crazy to me that people are downing highly addictive benzos or self-medication with alcohol while we're treating MDMA like its heroin.
This August is the last best chance for evil to flourish. It is like a perfect storm; an ineffective left wing president that has spent the last 2+ years destroying our military and economy while propping up China and Russia. Congress is out of town, the SCOTUS is out of town and of course Biden hasn't really been around for years. No one is running the ship of state. Various NGOs and billionaires a controlling puppet bureaucrats but no one is in charge. There is a risk, 50/50 maybe, that Trump could be elected and he would of course reverse all of these thing that the left has destroyed. So the time is right for China to invade Taiwan or Russia to totally destroy Ukraine and threaten Poland and Romania. Or the spies and saboteurs we allowed to sneak into the country could begin destroying us from within or all of these things could happen. Trump could be suicided, Biden could take a bad fall putting the cackling liar into the presidency, A SCOTUS justice could die in his sleep at some remote location, anything could happen. We live in dangerous times.
Good synopsis. Sadly, I think you're right. I bought a little extra rice, spaghetti, and canned tuna at the supermarket today just in case.
Zelensky ran a campaign on reaching a peace agreement with Russia. As Kennedy pointed out in an interview, Zelensky had two offers from Russia to settle the dispute and both included loosing the Crimea (Russian naval base) but keeping the Donbas if he treated Russians speaking Ukraines fairly. The US convinced him to turn the offers down. The Ukraines paid a hell of a price for that decision and it now appears the US will walk away from the whole fiasco. Zelensky will not survive and even the Ukraine may not survive. It was all preventable if the US leadership and NATO had not marched on Russia over the last 30 plus years. Now it appears that Taiwan is the new Ukraine. How many get shredded in the new fiasco? Dying empires are dangerous.
The homeless-industrial complex is just a derivative of the poverty-industrial complex. NGO's and new improved government departments fair rather nicely at the taxpayer trough. The actual problem remains the same but the virtue signaling sooths the "we got to do something" progressive crowd. Rinse, repeat and vote for more of the same.
The best of Macgregor yet on YouTube
Found at western rifle shooters 30 July 2023 More than Ukraine. Military academies, military policy, and US politics. At Vox Day July 31 2023
Never trust the science. We have a word for science that can be trusted. That word is "engineering". If science hasn't yet reached a point at which engineers can utilize it, it cannot be trusted. indyjonesouthere: If science hasn't yet reached a point at which engineers can utilize it, it cannot be trusted.
Given that, we can't trust the claim that the sun is a star, or that galaxies are millions of light-years away. indyjonesouthere: What difference would it make?
Eppur si muove. And to all the citizens of that time ... what difference did it make if it moves or not? Or today for that matter. It is simply another cog in the AGW "science" scam to which every science grifter has attached themselves.
#14.1.1.1.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-07-31 15:30
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: And to all the citizens of that time ... what difference did it make if it moves or not?
That's right. No one ever looked at the stars with wonder. And no practical benefit ever came from Galileo's discoveries. indyjonesouthere: It is simply another cog in the AGW "science" scam to which every science grifter has attached themselves. Galileo, just another AGW "science" grifter.
#14.1.1.1.2
Zachriel
on
2023-07-31 15:42
(Reply)
It's amazing to hear that the AGW controversy has been going on since Galileo. So that's the benefit? Need to see his worldwide temperature charts.
#14.1.1.1.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-07-31 16:54
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: It's amazing to hear that the AGW controversy has been going on since Galileo.
Heh. You're the one who brought up AGW in relation to Galileo. In any case, your claim was that science which hasn't yet reached a point at which engineers can utilize it cannot be trusted. Yet, Galileo's discovery of evidence for heliocentrism, while it had no utilization in engineering, is considered among the greatest scientific advances of the millennium.
#14.1.1.1.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-07-31 17:50
(Reply)
Galileo wasn't the first to promote heliocentrism. You injected Galileo ... and yet it moves. A nice deflection from the "science". Always keep moving the goalposts but. we're still back to "what difference did it make".
#14.1.1.1.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-07-31 20:00
(Reply)
the multiple personalities had a communication break down. They apparently don't read what each other post. And Galileo was a grifter too.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.1.1
B. Hammer
on
2023-07-31 20:43
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: You injected Galileo ... and yet it moves.
Yes. It’s a valid counterexample to your claim, “If science hasn't yet reached a point at which engineers can utilize it, it cannot be trusted.” Engineering utility is not the measure of whether a scientific finding is trustworthy, but whether or not empirical predictions are verifiable.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-07-31 20:47
(Reply)
Engineering utility of science is necessary, or the science is neither useful nor verifiable. Heliocentrism is an example. Is the Sun the center of the solar system or the center of the universe. There are numerous models for both but in the end what difference does it make?
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-07-31 22:30
(Reply)
And yet it moves.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-01 08:04
(Reply)
And what difference does it make to anyone other than a source for grant grifting?
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-01 11:33
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: And what difference does it make to anyone . . .
Galileo's evidence for the Earth's movement was very important to people in his time, enough so that it incurred the wrath of the Inquisition. Galileo's discoveries helped fuel an avalanche of research, so it had consequences well past his own time. That's why Galileo is considered among the foremost scientists of the millennium. You had claimed that engineering utility was necessary, or the science is not trustworthy. And yet it moves, regardless of how much you or the 17th century Church wave their hands. indyjonesouthere: other than a source for grant grifting? Seriously? Galileo?
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-01 13:45
(Reply)
Your history is rusty. Copernicus first proposed heliocentrism, not Galileo. Now why did Copernicus not get criticized by the church? It is because he proposed it as a theory or possibility. Galileo did not do that. He proposed it as reality many years after Copernicus proposed the theory. Thats what got him in trouble with the church. He could not PROVE heliocentrism. The church was actually the foremost supporter of science as that could, if properly done, promote TRUTH.
Galileo was less interested in that TRUTH.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-01 15:43
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: Copernicus first proposed heliocentrism, not Galileo.
Your history is rusty. Aristarchus of Samos proposed the first known heliocentric model. Nor did we say that Galileo was the first. Rather, we referred to "Galileo's discovery of evidence for heliocentrism". And this evidence stood even without a practical engineering application. And it led to many other scientific advances. You're actually arguing that Galileo didn't make scientific advances with his study of the Solar System. Regardless of you or the Church of the day, Galileo showed people how they could verify his findings. There! There are moons orbiting Jupiter! Anyone can look! These facts aren't untrustworthy just because of your arbitrary standard that there was no engineering application for the discovery of the Galilean moons. That's just silly. indyjonesouthere: Galileo did not do that. He proposed it as reality Eppur si muove.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-01 17:25
(Reply)
Galileo let his ego get in the way and the church confronted him on heliocentrism as it could not be proved while Copernicus did not promote it as a Truth and the church provided him with no criticisms. Galileo had the same ego problems that Al Gore has in his climate "science". There was no "engineering" to prove heliocentrism, only "science" conjecture. And, does it even move?
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-01 19:19
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: And, does it even move?
Eppur si muove.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 09:06
(Reply)
Do remember, there is red shift in all directions from earth. Hubble's observations.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 10:33
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: there is red shift in all directions from earth.
That's due to the expansion of the universe. An observer on Venus or on Andromeda Galaxy will observe the same red shift. You're actually arguing the Earth doesn't move. Incredible.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 11:30
(Reply)
And the direction of the expansion of space in the universe from the earths position is _______. The doppler red shift and the cosmological red shift are not the same. And the distribution of cosmological bodies is not uniform. They are in bands.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 12:06
(Reply)
And if you use the Gravitational red shift theory, none are moving. When it is all theory, gravitational or cosmological, the answer is in the future if available at all. So really, does it move.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 12:13
(Reply)
And by the way, when were you last in the Andromeda galaxy to confirm the cosmological red shift. While there could you confirm the heliocentric or geocentric earth/sun theories while being that far out.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.3
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 12:21
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: And the direction of the expansion of space in the universe from the earths position is _____.
Moving away. Just as it is for observers on other galaxies. indyjonesouthere: And by the way, when were you last in the Andromeda galaxy to confirm the cosmological red shift. No one has been to the Sun, but we know what it is made of. But seriously, you're arguing the Earth is stationary. Is it flat, too?
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 13:21
(Reply)
And you've been to the other galaxies? You do know the difference between theory and reality and conjecture?
Big difference in detection the suns composition from earth than in observing redshift from other galaxies. Unless you have been there of course. The earth or sun, moving or not, is only theory at best. Of which there are several on earth/sun movements if indeed there are any movements at all.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 14:49
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: Big difference in detection the suns composition from earth than in observing redshift from other galaxies.
Have you been to the Sun? How do we know its composition? It's all just theory and conjecture, isn't it?! Seriously. You're arguing the Earth doesn't move.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 14:56
(Reply)
The composition of the sun through the light spectum is simple enough. Red shift as seen from the earth is simple enough. Now red shift as seen from other galaxies is unknown. Measuring speed and measuring composition are two different things. At least to most people. Seriously!
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 15:25
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: The composition of the sun through the light spectum is simple enough.
Yet, you've never been there! {waves hands furiously!} indyjonesouthere: Now red shift as seen from other galaxies is unknown. Four objects in order on a line: A, B, C, D. You are B. B observes that A is moving away from B at velocity X. C is moving away at velocity X. D is moving away at velocity 2X. What does C observe? From basic arithmetic, C sees B and D moving away at velocity X, and A moving away at velocity 2X. The line is lengthening, that is, expanding.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 16:50
(Reply)
You are only present on one of those positions. Therefore you have no idea if you are moving at a redshift speed or stationary or if any one of the others are moving at a certain red shift speed or stationary. You can only verify that someone is moving but not who it is.
Once again, speed and composition are two different things when viewing a light spectrum.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 17:03
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: Therefore you have no idea if you are moving at a redshift speed or stationary or if any one of the others are moving at a certain red shift speed or stationary.
We provided an example. As usual, you don't bother to actually respond.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 17:31
(Reply)
My response is evident. As you can be on only one of the positions you will only know that some are moving but you may not be moving. If you are B you will not be seeing anything from C. Do you actually think you can travel to these two positions for your observation? The reality is that you are restricted to one location. One location does not provide the information to determine who is moving.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-02 18:12
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: As you can be on only one of the positions you will only know that some are moving but you may not be moving.
As usual you confuse two issues. You said, “Now red shift as seen from other galaxies is unknown.” Red shift shows relative velocity. And yes, we can determine the red shift, i.e. the relative velocity, as seen at another location. The simplest example (you apparently couldn’t follow the multi-body example) would be observing the red shift of an object moving away from you. Someone on the other object would observe the same red shift when observing you! So, yes. We can determine the red shift as seen by another galaxy. As for whether the Earth moves, Foucault’s pendulum demonstrates the Earth’s rotation. The rotation of the Earth creates an acceleration for objects on its surface. Consider being in an elevator or taking a ride in a rotating amusement ride with your eyes closed. You may not see your motion, but you will feel the acceleration.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1
Zachriel
on
2023-08-02 22:57
(Reply)
Your insistence is that "it moves" a quote from Galileo. There is not enough evidence available to determine if it moves or doesn't move. The evidence I gave that it doesn't move is the evidence, in every direction, of cosmological redshift. If gravitational red shift is used I am not sure of the movement. They are theories at best and conjecture at worst and as observations from other heavenly bodies is not possible now it also reminds us that redshift from them cannot be confirmed and remains unknown.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-03 13:33
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: If gravitational red shift is used I am not sure of the movement.
You ignored how we are able to determine the observed redshift from another object. Once again, ignoring a point is not a refutation of that point. indyjonesouthere: There is not enough evidence available to determine if it moves or doesn't move. We provided evidence, which you ignored. If the Earth rotates, then bodies on the surface experience acceleration, which is observable. Also, Foucault's pendulum is direct evidence of the Earth's rotation. But seriously. You're arguing the Earth doesn't move. That's just silly.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-03 14:46
(Reply)
You assume red shift works the same in parts of the universe. Is that the new Z discovery? That you can observe from other positions of the universe just as you observe from earth. You need to patent that discovery and get ahold of Stanford. You become more foolish by the post.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-03 18:20
(Reply)
indyjoneouthere: You assume red shift works the same in parts of the universe.
Other galaxies are much like the Milky Way. Stars in other galaxies are much like stars nearby, including Cepheid variable stars, which provide an independent measure of distance. Elemental spectra are the same, albeit red shifted. That, and massive amount of other evidence strongly supports the uniformity of physical laws across the universe (excepting the first moments after the Big Bang singularity), everything from quantum mechanics to relativity. Notably, you ignored the evidence for the Earth’s motion.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-03 20:56
(Reply)
You make too many assumptions. Assumptions are not 'science', they are mere conjecture. Your assumptions on measuring red ship from one location and applying that to all locations has zero basis in reality. Even the big bang theory is in question as material should be evenly distributed in space but they recently found out it is not evenly distributed. But you quickly assume red shift can be measured everywhere and going in every direction from a single location but you have zero means to measure it. That is astonishing. You really must publish.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-03 23:42
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: Even the big bang theory is in question as material should be evenly distributed in space but they recently found out it is not evenly distributed.
Add cosmology to the things you don't know about. The Big Bang is predicted not to have been evenly distributed, but should leave a lumpy residue due to the quantum fluctuations in the moments after the singularity. indyjonesouthere: You make too many assumptions. Actually, we pointed to specific evidence, of which there is a lot. Speaking of quantum mechanics, spectral lines are like fingerprints for the elements. When we observe the spectra of distant galaxies, we observe the same spectra as we see on Earth, though red shifted. This shows that quantum mechanics works the same way in distant galaxies which are composed of the same elements as those on Earth. It's the same reason we know that the Sun is primarily made up of hydrogen and helium. (Helium was discovered on the Sun even before it was found on Earth.)
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-04 07:52
(Reply)
And yet redshift can only be observed from a single point which can provide no movement data for any one of the bodies. They can both move or one can be fixed.
You keep trying to mix the observation of movement, redshift, with elemental composition. They are not the same thing and you are trying to introduce confusion. Just as you do with AGW.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-04 13:53
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: And yet redshift can only be observed from a single point which can provide no movement data for any one of the bodies.
The red shift is due to the Doppler effect. Both observers will see that the distance between them is increasing.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-04 14:26
(Reply)
Doppler red shift affect and cosmological red shift are not the same thing. Stick to the cosmological red shift as that is the topic.
Next point. There is only one observer on one of the heavenly bodies. Observing from one position does NOT give the necessary information to determine whether the observers body is motionless or moving or the other body is motionless or moving. There are no fixed reference points available. The cosmological red shift only tells you that at least one of the two bodies is moving.
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.2.2.1
indyjonesouthere
on
2023-08-04 18:11
(Reply)
See below. . .
#14.1.1.1.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.2.4.1.1.2.2.1.1.2.2.2.2.2
Zachriel
on
2023-08-04 20:41
(Reply)
"Given that, we can't trust the claim that the sun is a star, or that galaxies are millions of light-years away."
Because radiation detectors, solar panels and telescopes have never been invented. If Silicon Valley bigwigs are using illegal drugs, whether they're microdosing or not, then so are politicians, and people in other spheres of power. That goes a long way toward explaining why it seems the world has gone crazy.
Ask yourself if you'd like to be on a plane when the pilot starts seeing magic landing zones in the clouds. Forensic Study Into 2020 Detroit, Michigan Election Finds Up to 34,000 Illegal Ballots – And Additional Warnings from Detroit Clerks that THOUSANDS of Absentee Paper Was Different than Normal Ballots
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/07/forensic-exam-2020-michigan-election-finds-illegal-ballots/ and Atlanta braces for possible indictments in 2020 election investigation https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/atlanta-braces-for-possible-indictments-in-2020-election-investigation/ar-AA1eA1cJ indyjonesouthere: Doppler red shift affect and cosmological red shift are not the same thing.
Redshift is an example of the Doppler Effect. indyjonesouthere: Observing from one position does NOT give the necessary information to determine whether the observers body is motionless or moving or the other body is motionless or moving. It gives relative motion. It contradicts your claim that we can’t know the red shift as observed at a distant point. It should be obvious that, if A is getting farther away from B, then B is getting farther away from A. They will both see the other as red shifted. As for whether the Earth moves, consider Foucault’s pendulum, or the detectable acceleration of someone on a rotating body. One body can be still and the other moving and you will not know which it is as there will be red shift regardless. There is no reference point to know which is moving. There is only red shift to know that one or both may be moving. And you will only observe from one location.
Backing up to rotation is just your attempt at moving the goal posts to obtain your "but it moves". It rotates but there is no current proofs that it moves through space. Do remember, cosmological red shift is seen in every direction from earth. indyjonesouthere: It rotates but there is no current proofs that it moves through space.
Well, at least you admit the Earth rotates. As for the Earth's revolution, there are a number of ways to show that the Earth moves, such as parallax measurements of nearby stars, small changes in red shift, not to mention the strong support for Newtonian mechanics. All of this somehow relates to your claim that "If science hasn't yet reached a point at which engineers can utilize it, it cannot be trusted." Yet, much of science doesn't have engineering utility but leads to verifiable predictions of observational phenomena. While Newtonian mechanics always had engineering utility, Newton's Universal gravitation did not, yet it led to verifiable predictions of observational phenomena. Observation is the foundation of science, not engineering utility. And you, as usual are deflecting and moving goal posts at the same time. There are a number of ways .... it's rather funny that cosmologists have done none of those measurements associated with the movement of earth through space. You really must publish.
The science can't be trusted and your dodging and diving reveal that quite well. Engineering is what everyone lives by... not science. By all means, continue the deflection and obfuscation. indyjonesouthere: it's rather funny that cosmologists have done none of those measurements associated with the movement of earth through space.
Huh? Stellar parallax due to Earth's motion around the Sun has been observed since the nineteenth century. See, for instance, Henderson, On the Parallax of α Centauri, Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society 1839. We were talking redshift found in the universe in order to determine motion or relative motion. And here you are jabbering about motion in our solar system. More deflection and more goal post motion.
Once again you are in deflection mode on Halleys. That entertains. scientists. Engineers entertain the world. A note on finding the models on a fixed earth is here and as it includes information from as late as the 2010's good luck at debunking it. Read it all ... you will never view the universe the same way again. https://flatearthdeception.com/the-hidden-option-of-the-geocentric-globe-earth/ For centuries, people thought comets portended events on Earth. Edmond Halley turned that around. Wielding Newton's theory of universal gravitation and laws of motion, he predicted the return of the comet we now call Halley's Comet. It was sighted on Christmas night in 1758, long after his death. There was no engineering utility to Halley's Comet, but it lit up the world and gave more evidence of Newton's theory of universal gravitation.
Observation is the difference between science and hand waving. As for the red shift due to Earth's orbital motion, see Lubin et al., A Map of the Cosmic Background Radiation at 3 millimeters, The Astrophysical Journal 1985: The orbital velocity of the Earth around the Sun is roughly 30 km s^-1 (β = 10^-4) or 10% of Earth's velocity relative to the cosmic background radiation (β = 10^-3). Flights separated by 6 months should be able to detect Earth's orbital motion as a 10% change in the dipole. Our 1982 April and November flights clearly show this effect.
indyjonesouthere: We were talking redshift found in the universe in order to determine motion or relative motion. And here you are jabbering about motion in our solar system.
The first ever prediction of a comet’s return filled the world with wonder that anyone could look to the sky and see. Yet, it had no “engineering utility”. It confirmed Newton’s theory of universal gravitation, which entailed the movement of the Earth. More direct evidence of the Earth’s movement can be found in stellar parallax and in the seasonal fluctuation in the observed cosmic background radiation. Citations provided. Ignoring the evidence doesn’t make it go away. Seriously? Geocentricism! Read the source I posted. It covers the legacy of all the most well known scientists of cosmology. They can't prove the earth moves. Even later before death, Galileo agreed with that. Your sole 'but it moves" witness recanted. Read ALL the evidence. You haven't done that. No one in cosmology today can show the earth moves.
indyjonesouthere: They can't prove the earth moves.
We read your linked article. Seasonal stellar parallax is not consistent with a fixed Earth. And you paid no attention to the planetary movement proposed by Tycho Brahe which is as relevant today as it was in the 1500's. It provides the identical planetary movements observed today and in the heliocentric model. And measurements would duplicate parallax observations. Do remember what Einstein said in the piece ... there is no optical measurement that could show earth movement. And note Steven Hawkings comment, "for our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest." READ AGAIN.
indyjonesouthere: And measurements would duplicate parallax observations.
No, they don’t.
#18.1.1.1.1
Zachriel
on
2023-08-06 07:26
(Reply)
indyjonesouthere: It provides the identical planetary movements observed today and in the heliocentric model.
Yes, but it does not explain them, as does Newton’s theories, theories which unify terrestrial and planetary movements. Regardless, geocentrism is not consistent with stellar parallax, stellar aberration, or the observed season fluctuation in the dipole of the cosmic background radiation, which are all observable evidence of the Earth’s movement. Parallax is what kind of observation? It is an optical observation. And what did Einstein say about optical observations? They could not prove heliocentrism or geocentrism. Both were equally plausible. What did Einstein inow that proved that stellar parallax was an invalid concept for measuring motion, especialy in a geocentric system. It was the theory of relativity. Whereas Newton had seen gravity as a force propagated between bodies, Einstein described it as a pseudo force EXPERIENCED because the entire interwoven bavric of space and time BENDS around a massive object. Bending also applies to light. In a geocentric model the sun will move from season to season just as in the heliocentric model. In one geocentric season the sun will be on one side while in the other season it will be one the other side and, in each case, the optical image will be bent in the opposing direction giving you a faulty measurement of parallax angle. Stellar parallax ONLY holds up in a heliocentric model. It fails miserably in a geocentric model. Take it from Einstein, not from me.
https://the conversation.com/how-einsteins-general-theory-of-relativity-killed-off-common-sense-physics-50042 indyjonesouthere: Parallax is what kind of observation?
Parallax is a direct observation. Parallax is not due to relativity or Newtonian. It’s Euclidean. It’s the same reason that, when walking in the woods, nearby trees appear to move backward compared to trees farther away. If the Earth were fixed, then there would be no seasonal stellar parallax. Stellar parallax is a case of triangulation. It even has its own unit: the parsec
You are still not accepting Einstein's view that optical observations are not relevant to a geocentric model. Parallax can only be applied to a heliocentric model. There are plenty of sources that point out that it only applies to a heliocentric model.
Light bends around large objects. You are using the light waves to view parallax. When viewing the stars from a geocentric model on the two seasons there will be a bending of the light as it goes past the sun. That bending is ALL error in trying to get the parallax angle. Parallax MUST comply with all the laws of Einsteins relativity. The light from a parallax measurement WILL be affected by large masses just as black holes, which are very large masses, will bend light. It is a Euclidean measurement that must still abide by Einsteins relativity which directs that the light WILL bend. indyjonesouthere: When viewing the stars from a geocentric model on the two seasons there will be a bending of the light as it goes past the sun.
Stars are observed at night. The light doesn’t pass the Sun. Nor does that explain why the light of some stars are affected but not others. There is no parallax in the geocentric model, but parallax is observed; hence, the geocentric model is falsified. Parallax has been observed with a baseline of more than 6 billion km by the New Horizon interplanetary space probe. This observation confirmed to a high degree the seasonal parallax measurements from Earth.
ndyjonesouthere: The light observation must still pass the sun in the geocentric model.
Obviously, regardless of model, the light from a star does not pass by the Sun at night. (That’s why Einstein’s contemporaries had to wait for a solar eclipse to test for this effect.) Nor have you bothered to actually respond. The Sun does bend light that passes by it, but it bends light from all sources, not just nearby stars. Parallax of Proxima Centauri from New Horizon is 36 arcseconds, just as predicted based on the 0.76 arcseconds as viewed from Earth in opposite seasons and the distance from Earth to New Horizon. That puts Proxima Centauri at 1.3 parsecs from Earth. Lucky guess? Stellar parallax is a direct optical observation made from earth.
Following Einsteins theory of Relativity, any wave whether optical or radio wave will be bent and twisted any number of times passing through space. Large masses will affect the waves travel its entire distance enroute to earth and that effect is ever shifting as large masses are MOVING. Lucky guess? Yes, especially when you know the result you are supposed to obtain. Stellar parallax is old technology that can only pretend to explain heliocentrism. It can NOT explain anything on geocentrism. If you follow enough sites on heliocentrism, they will inform you of that restriction but you apparently have not the time to observe those sites. Einstein's work, which was arrived at quite some time after the "parallax" ideas, IS the latest "science". His comments that there are no optical measurements that can be accurately made, when they travel through space, even questions using the method on a heliocentric model. If "science" continues using the method I rather suspect it is for grifting purposes. Grab and Go grant money. Keeps the unemployable off welfare and grateful to the government employers. Much like the government employed AGW grifters who soak up multimillions in grants all in the service to the proper outcome. And "obviously" the sun, and every other mass between earth and the measured star, will affect the waves travel. It comes down to the same old standard, garbage in and garbage out. But don't take Einstein's word for it, you obviously are the source of sources. Are you retarded? It doesn't matter if it is day/night, The light observation must still pass the sun in the geocentric model. And the mass of that body will still bend the light that passes by the sun and any other mass objects between the earth and the star for which the parallax is being measured.
Confirmed to a high degree means about as much as your belief in AGW/CO2 "trends". The geocentric model is not falsified but you absolutely do believe that you are smarter than Einstein. XYZ
indyjonesouthere: Stellar parallax is a direct optical observation made from earth. That's right! It requires two observations, half a year apart. The difference is about 0.76 arcseconds. That puts Proxima Centauri at a distance of 1.3 parsecs. The observation from New Horizon confirms and makes more precise the distance. There is other evidence of the distance to Proxima Cenauri, further confirming the finding. indyjonesouthere: Following Einsteins theory of Relativity, any wave whether optical or radio wave will be bent and twisted any number of times passing through space. The amount of bending is very small unless the mass is very large and the light passes very close. Under Newtonian principles, light that passes the very limb of the Sun will bend about 0.87 arcseconds, while under Einstein's relativity, it will bend around 1.75 arcseconds. The light from Proxima Centauri, when viewed at night doesn't pass anywhere near the Sun or any other large mass. In addition, all stars will have their light bent by the Sun by the same amount. However, that is not the same as parallax, which affects closer stars more than distant stars. indyjonesouthere: Lucky guess? Yes, especially when you know the result you are supposed to obtain. Haha! That's funny. They know the result because it's predicted from parallax viewed from Earth, then from a more distant observation, the New Horizon. But we already explained this, and you ignored it again. Let's try this. Explain our position on parallax and why we argue it contradicts geocentrism. If you can't explain our position, then you are arguing a straw man. The sun is but one of the large masses that the light travels by. The light road is lumpy and bumpy and the very reason it is useless when the light path you are measuring is not straight on either measurement six months apart. The angle of any apex requires straight lines.
Robert Sungenis has produced a video on YouTube called "Einstein The closet Geocentrist". You need view only the portion running from about43-45minutes to the portion running to about57-58 minutes to see your proposed parallax theory made unusable. Einstein's 'special theory of relativity" was used to debunk the Michelson-Morley experiment however the 'general theory of relativity' abandons the special theory. Michelson-Morley still rules. Again, you ignored the points we raised. Let us know when are ready to abandon your fight against straw.
Your points are addressed in the video by Sungenis. View or don't view. This is why I always put my support behind engineering and pretty much ignore science. The science is never settled except by grifters. AGW, Covid, Geocentrism, Heliocentrism, neomalthusianism ...they are all science of one kind or another but most never reach the threshold of theory. They are conjecture.
|