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Wednesday, May 4. 2022Abortion
As I have noted in the past, I refused to participate in an abortion in medical school and nobody cared. I was not alone. It was not on any clearly-defined moral or religious grounds really, just more like a disgust for the whole idea. Other people did them as comfortably as doing a tummy-tuck. OK for them. Maybe I was weak. It was an inner conflict. I would never have been willing to do a tranny surgery either, but they were not routine then. I confess that I came from a good, solid family which stayed together and produced a large litter of good, solid citizens. Protestant, not Roman Catholic. Regardless of the above, it is all about sex. Sex is a strong drive in us animals. We do not always use our brains despite every form of birth control.
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I can't link because it rejects me as spam, but I have just posted that it is only about sex indirectly. It is a proxy for a whole suite of cultural values, and sexual opinions are part of that.
However, i am increasingly aware that this applies to people over 50 - maybe even 60 - only, and the motivations for younger generations may be different. And James the Lesser pointed out that I actually said something much smarter 17 years ago, so I'm losing ground. I've read your post, and I think this is poorly phrased, if not missing the target entirely. Saying it's a proxy for cultural attitudes that you pick up, sort of by osmosis, if you hang out in Christian crowds-- like maybe a hairstyle, or listening to country music.
But Christianity, if it's to be anything at all, must be adopting a radically different viewpoint of the world. If you really believe that God Himself took on a human form-- beginning at a zygote and developing like all of us step-by-step into an adult-- you can't treat anybody at any of those stages like just a clump of tissue anymore. Humanity, even human bodies, have been divinized. I would say, rather, that refusal to tolerate abortion is less a cultural attitude or proxy, and much more an utterly unavoidable point of conflict with pagan society. The earliest records we have of Christian teaching—the Didache, from the second (maybe first!) century; the apology of Justin Martyr, from ~160; Clement of Alexandria, around 200; and many, many more—explicitly condemn it. Even pagan sources talk about those freakish weirdo Christians, who won’t tolerate either abortion or infanticide (even of **girl babies** fer cryin’ out loud!). Pagan society is built on ruthless power and the satisfaction of bodily and psychological demands. True, lived Christianity MUST collide with this, because it MUST be built on a different foundation. The pagans will insist on the collision. An abortion is an act of human sacrifice - the life of the unborn child is sacrificed so that the mother need not have to care for an unwanted off-spring. The mother is granted the status of God; one having the power of life and death.
The unborn are living people. The act of abortion is murder. There is a strong evolutionary reason why sex doesnt feel terrible. Unfortunately, our minds have not universally evolved far enough to defer simple base pleasures. Oddly enough, a child is one last ditch hope to force a lot of adult children to finally grow up and gain responsibility, however the spirit is too often weak.
It's not about sex at all. This is about how we value life. We are already seeing what comes after legal abortions: assisted suicide, forced euthanasia, eugenics. They are all related.
Terry Baker is right. Abortion by choice is Human Sacrifice, no different than it was 2000 years ago. It's a sacrifice of something valuable for success in the future. It has also been used as a weapon against groups defined by ethnicity, economic status, or disabilities. This is as important an issue for our society to face as slavery was in the 19th century. A darker stain on our society than slavery was, in my opinion. It is all about sex….that’s how you get pregnancies, buddy. No sex, no pregnancy. The whole immaculate conception, well that requires faith, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
My point is that when people surrender to the pleasures of sex — which feels good to facilitate birth and the surivial of the species… we would probably be extinct if sex felt painful and people therefore sought to avoid the conditions which furthered species procreation— without the mind or responsibility to raise children should their pleasure seeking create new life. Didn't mean for my comment to be a reply to yours. It was intended as a comment on the top thread.
But I stand by what I said. It's not about sex at all. Sex is for the creation of life, not its destruction. The choice to kill a baby does not come from the same motives as the choice to have sex. They are not related. I think you're speaking what ought to be, I speaking about what is -- people having sex when they don't want to have kids. If you don't want kids, don't have sex. Period.
#3.1.1.1.1
Joe B.
on
2022-05-04 20:50
(Reply)
The whole immaculate conception, well that requires faith, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Technically, the immaculate conception refers to the idea that Mary was conceived w/o sin. She was conceived through sex, though, so it's not a good example for your argument. The virgin birth of Jesus is a different thing, if that's what you intended. Alas, I forgot we use BBCode here and used HTML. That first sentence was a quote and should have looked like this:
The whole immaculate conception, well that requires faith, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It’s about life. They’re already coming for lives at the other end of the spectrum with euthanasia, assisted suicide, and hospital intensivist protocols.
If you like your life… you can keep it, they said. Your thinking is clear enough that you recognize abortion as something different than a tummy tuck.
I have come a long way on this topic since I was a teenager.
More than once, I thought I would be a father while I was still a teen. I remember thinking, "well if she's pregnant, I can help her get an abortion and then the problem is gone". Thankfully, I never had to make that decision. All of them were false alarms. But I realized years later that if a baby had died because of my (or her) convenience, that would be a tragedy. Especially since I was born to a mother I assume was unwed. She gave me up for adoption when I was less than a month old. I am sure that she saw me as an unwanted interruption in her life, even if not quite a tragedy. She couldn't legally abort me in 1967, but she could have after Roe. I am so thankful that she didn't. My adoptive parents were as caring and attentive as anyone could be. I have since had a career that has been very gratifying. I have raised three kids of my own with the love of my life. So I hope that anyone considering an abortion will choose to give the baby up for adoption instead. There are so many parents who want to adopt these days. I believe there is a very simple "legal" compromise. I believe the "morality" of the conversation should be between a woman and her G*d. However, I understand that most young women today don't have a relationship with G*D. Let's do this:
1. after 12 weeks any doctor can say no. 2. after 12 weeks it takes the review of an informed panel--psychologist, doctor, etc. 3. if the woman is younger than 18 years of age it takes written consent from the parents. 4. Over 14 weeks--that is up to the state to decide 5. After 16 weeks--it is illegal unless carrying the child is a threat to the mother's health. There has been too many states with amateur hour representatives trying to compromise some new legislation that means something wonderful to every registered voter--the legal results of their efforts are a JOKE--Very badly designed legislation that has no direct purpose other than to make everybody happy! That is just bad design. I sometimes find myself thinking of former President Clinton's formulation: Legal, safe, and rare.
Also, I find myself discomforted by the ideas; 1. "Birth control ruins the spontaneity for me", and, 2. "I can't enjoy my spring break with this thing inside me/her." Thoughtless hedonism is a turn off for me. I find even more uncomfortable that attributed to President Biden that this issue is too important to be left to the voters. Abortion is evil. Murder is evil. Evil should be fought tooth and nail constantly,not rationalized. And it takes character to swim against the current of " it is my body" nonsense.
I don't believe in abortion, but I don't think it ought to be illegal, either. I think this is the middle ground where most of the country aligns across party boundaries.
I knew a young woman years ago who got in trouble. Her mother was, for a while, a second-order national figure. The 'testify in front of Congress' type, devoutly Christian, steeped in family values, and I knew the family well enough to know the integrity of her beliefs was no put on, it was to-the-bone. And not at all puritanical or judgemental, on the contrary, private and low-key. Anyway the young woman had her life in front of her, opportunities abounded because of the family's position, any kind of richly-rewarding passion for a career could be indulged because of family ties. She was still in university and not in a serious relationship, if I recall correctly. So anyway, the family wrestled with the dilemma and in the end, made the choice. I learned from watching this at the outskirts, that having to make this decision with the clock ticking is soul-wounding, regardless of the outcome. I don't know how either one of them feels about it, today. It's the human condition. The idea of late term abortion, or even certain Democrat politicians going on about post-birth abortions, make me heartsick to know that we have such grotesque ideas being expressed by societal leaders as if it should be a commonplace event. It is nothing short of barbarity, brutality. But the other end of this - a morning-after pill, early term procedures - I feel this is going to be where most states land. Your religious and spiritual beliefs are yours to tend to, as is your soul. Choosing to be Godless is you business, as well. Being legal and rare, is an achievable target - easily in reach if people will pick up the slack and raise their kids to know better. You and I agree on MANY things. I have spent a lot of time nodding my head in agreement when I've read your posts.
But if abortion is wrong enough for us to want it to be rare, shouldn't we acknowledge that it is wrong? After all, it doesn't matter whether the person who does a deed believes that it is ok. If the deed is wrong, feeling that it is right doesn't make it right. If that were the case, then a slave owner would be justified in thinking "it is my decision to own slaves and if others don't want to, then that is their decision. But me owning slaves isn't wrong." I don't say this in sanctimonious judgment of your opinion. It simply seems to me that wrong is wrong no matter what we call it. I didn't say I didn't think it is wrong; I said it is the human condition. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a list of human actions that are wrong. Stealing is wrong - but stealing jewelry or clothing in San Francisco is different to stealing bread and medicine for your mom. Killing a person is wrong. But defending yourself with a resulting consequential death doesn't make it right - you're alive, sure, but you've killed someone. Your life is forever changed.
The problem is that everything about the human condition cannot be ascribed through a religious lens for the whole of society. You can choose to do that if these are your religious tenants and you want it for yourself and your loved ones, but if you start telling me I ought to abide by them too, you must accept that this could be problematic. I wouldn't want my daughter to have an abortion. I wouldn't want her to carry this terrible burden through life, the remorse, the sadness, the doubt. I wouldn't want to see her soul thus damaged, as I have seen the damage wrought on others who arguably felt its impact more profoundly than I might. But leaping ahead to say that it's so wrong that every person must so abide: Well, I've seen the religious police at work in Muslim countries. I don't want that here. We are a diverse society. I think widely available safe contraception is terrific. I think morning -after pills have a place. I think humans are imperfect and make mistakes. And at the extreme, I think late term abortions are murder. So I do the best I can, by taking responsibility for my choices and teaching my daughter that she must take ownership of hers - while trying to teach her what consequences might look like. These things are my responsibility, as is my relationship with the Almighty. We can agree that something is wrong and accept that we don't know everything, and understand that the best way to administer to the wrong is not always going to be what we think. Free birth control for both men and women. Reversible vasectomies. Rape, incest and impaired consent should be considered. Abortion as birth control—no.
Doctor, you said your refusal to perform abortions in med school wasn't due to any religious or moral objection, just "general disgust". Wouldn't that be a moral judgment? Our personal ethos are based on the inner moral conscience that is imprinted upon us by our Creator, who puts a sense of His moral law on every person. You are just agreeing with God about what He thinks about abortion in this exercise of your judgment.
The problem is that everything about the human condition cannot be ascribed through a religious lens for the whole of society.
Opposition to abortion is simply opposition to murder. You don't need to look at life through a religious lens to say that murder should be against the law, do you? The question is whether it is homicide or not. If it is homicide, then in most cases it is murder and so should be illegal. If it is not homicide, then it isn't murder and then whether it should be illegal or not depends on other factors. Religion doesn't enter into it, unless your belief that murder should be illegal also depends on your religious views. For a philosophical, non-religious explanation of why abortion should not be legal, Grim has a good one up now. "Opposition to abortion is simply opposition to murder"
If I understand this correctly, you are stating your fealty to your beliefs, to say it's 'murder' anytime after conception. But I don't think that serves any useful purpose in moving the problem - with respect, it's just you and your position. And right now the Law doesn't agree. Consider: We will never solve world hunger. We will always, at least our lifetime, have people starving and dying from malnutrition. I think this is tragic and wrong. So what? Right now activists are preparing the stage for a great national argument, and probable violence, as people become entrenched in their positions, insisting that only they or their tribe can be right, only their solution can be adopted. If I understand this correctly, you are stating your fealty to your beliefs, to say it's 'murder' anytime after conception.
My point was that this isn't a religious argument. We all agree that we have the right to pass laws against murder and we don't need any religious argument for that, right? Abortion is no different. It isn't about religion. Now, some people will say that all morality has to be grounded in religion. For them, murder is only wrong because their religion says it is wrong. I'm assuming you aren't one of them, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if you agree that we can rightfully pass laws against murder and theft without bringing religion into it, I am simply saying abortion is the same thing. We have the right to pass laws that limit the harm we can do to others, within our Constitutional framework and rights. That is also why I linked a non-religious philosophical argument against abortion. This is not about religion or applying a religious lens to the topic. But I don't think that serves any useful purpose in moving the problem
It's open discussion of public matters in a free republic. I always thought that was useful, even though some opinions that get expressed (and at times all of them) are going to be wrong. with respect, it's just you and your position. This is a blog, right? :-) But, what exactly is "moving the problem"? How do you define that? In any case, I would argue that you cannot move the problem if you don't understand what the problem is. The arguments about when one becomes a person are about defining the problem, and as such are quite valuable. Without them, you risk wasting your time and efforts. I define 'moving the problem' as eliminating late term abortions, removing nearly all Federal funding, and reversing RvW, and turning administration of abortion services over to the states, where it belongs.
I would not call this neutral ground, but it's the ground that is more commonly held by other western countries - more the norm, if you will. All good steps, I agree.
That is a start - reflective of most people's position on the issue, and pushing the extremists on both sides of the issue to the margins, rather than ceding the center stage to their extremist nonsense, where the problem can never move toward resolution.
And I would also, say, resolving the problem constructively is going to require dealing harshly with any extremist that attempts to hijack the issue by leveraging a commitment to polite discourse with violence and intimidation. It is time to meet in-your-face antifa-style guerilla protest bullying with 'how would you like a broken leg?' responses - on both extremist sides (but mostly Progressive). But in my view, the only workable path forward is to be determined to make progress toward a better set of societal conditions - to become determined to see effective change. Roe v Wade is very likely to be overturned, and high time in my view: It's been damaging to our society for years. We can see over 50 years of arguing and position-staking behind us. A small percentage of people have changed their mind after thinking hard about it. Most people don't want unfettered abortion at any elective stage of pregnancy and never did, and (maybe more precisely) believe it's to see abortions of fetuses which, with today's technology, are commonly viable outside the womb.
But where medical science and technology have advanced, ethical and spiritual learning, development, and maturity are in retrograde. We have some hard work to do, as a society, if we are to advance morally. How many of us have sat our kids down and tabled this difficult conversation and insisted on taking them through it, all the way? How many of us have explicitly conveyed our thoughts on the importance of family? From a purely practical perspective, our viability as a country via reproduction is under threat from low birth rates. The human condition engenders societal problems. Shouldn't we be tackling the abortion issue as a component of a societal problem and be determined to change it to improve our nation / world toward a more rewarding life? Staking highly-emotionally-charged positions simply won't do that. You won't gather the stakeholders required to make progress beyond shouting matches. But if you highly constrain abortions, and include practical life coaching and counseling, you will help change the mindset and conditions of the classes that make the most use of these services, the ones created by the nightmare Great Society. If you pass legislation that encourages and supports stable family structures, you'll get buy-in. Hungary is doing this now, with good success. The Death Cult has been doing its best to disrupt the family structure over the past 5 decades. That doesn't mean we have to put up with it.
The only time meaningful change comes to a society (it seems to me) is when groups of people become determined enough to change something we don't like, at the cost of something we wish we could have. That only happens when we decide to abandon the comfort of our perfect, imagined solutions and actually tackle the problem, getting dirty. This is how wars are won. This is how big projects are completed. And this is how progressives got Roe v Wade passed in the first place, in my opinion. |