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Thursday, December 4. 2014
Resist arrest. It rarely works out well.
The darn guy turned a little misdemeanor arrest into a deathly accident. Stupid, pointless, and provocative as hell. Never do that, dear readers.
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There are degrees of resisting arrest, and the video of Garner doesn't seem to indicate he was resisting. His hands are up, and he is being overwhelmed by 3-4 officers.
He is a big guy, so maybe they thought it was necessary to have that many to deal with a guy who was just selling "loosies".
More to the point, one applied a chokehold. Even more to the point, they left him lying on the ground, not breathing, for 7 minutes.
Sorry to disagree on this one. I think Michael Brown was completely justified and the reactions overdone. But Garner was police brutality, in my opinion.
While Wilson's case being passed was more than likely a good thing (it seems the evidence and testimony was overwhelmingly in his favor), I have yet to see or hear anything in the Garner case which justifies his treatment.
I'm opposed to supporting the police anytime, anywhere. They make mistakes, sometimes very bad ones. These should be dealt with swiftly. The Garner non-indictment is a big black mark on the police, in my opinion.
Think again about Wilson and Brown. The grand jury got to hear what the prosecutor let them hear, and see what he let them see. Brown's version is NOT consistent with audio recordings:
And the entire investigation was corrupted from the very start by his Brothers in Blue. Wilson MAY have gotten what he deserved. But even there, the stench is overwhelming. And it smells like pig.
While many people like and rely on Daily Kos, I've found it unreliable and tainted - much as some consider (possibly with justification) Fox News unreliable and tainted.
I won't dispute that Wilson MAY have deserved to be at least indicted, though I remain skeptical. There was too much evidence - regardless of your belief about what was withheld or not - that disputed claims of what people believed happened. More importantly, some eyewitnesses' stories changed and/or conflicted. I don't even think Wilson's story is 100% true.
But in the end, you can't dispute that Brown robbed a store, and it's easy to see how, when confronted by a cop a few minutes later he might assume he was going to be picked up for the robbery.
I don't think killing anyone is 'good' and I certainly don't think it's ever justified when the perp is unarmed. But there are degrees of mitigating circumstances and unfortunately for Brown, those circumstances DO NOT work in his favor, except for people predisposed to want to believe them.
I'm ambivalent. I'm NOT a cop supporter at all times. I've seen good and bad cops. Wilson hardly seems like a bad cop, just a good one in an unfortunate situation.
The fellow in Staten Island? WHOOOOLE different story.
And then there's this:
Interesting article... "... Wilson claims...", "... Did Wilson lie?"
I guess the consideration of testimony of other blacks in the area who say they saw Brown charge at Wilson didn't make into the article. Neither did the testimony of those supporting the 'protester's view' of what happened that didn't comport with the physical evidence. Or the witness, who admitted he gave an account based on his biases rather than what actually happened.
So you're saying that the Democratic prosecutor chose to throw out a good case, set off a firestorm of destruction not only in Ferguson but in several other cities as well to help out his police buddy? Wouldn't that mean he's a racist? But we all know, it's Republicans and police officers who are racist. Of course, he didn't have to convene a Grand Jury in the first place. He could have decided not to prosecute on his own.
And you're also saying that the black people who corroborated Wilson's testimony did it for... what?
In the video, you can only hear what Eric Garner is saying. The police are quiet (or not picked up on the mic). Since at a later point in the video, the police move on him to put him under arrest, I can only surmise that they told him he was being arrested...and then we hear his protests. He claims he 'was doing nothing' and that he 'just wanted to be left alone.'
The fact that he is surrounded by several police officers indicates to me they were in a conversation about what had been the complaint or the witness account at the scene. "Resisting" arrest is ANY attempt to NOT comply with the officers and what they are asking you to do. Based on Mr. Garner's comments, I can surmise he was not happy with whatever the police said to him. Instead of complying with what they asked him to do, he disobeyed and 'resisted.'
Many times the police will put numerous people in handcuffs until they can straighten out the situation. Being in handcuffs does not mean you are under arrest or charged with any crime. It is merely a safety precaution until the officers can determine what happened and who was involved.
It is too bad this man didn't just let himself be handcuffed. If he truly did nothing, they could've figured that out very quickly and he would've been let go.
As for the 'chokehold,' I do not see choking going on, or the man wouldn't have been able to talk. It was a takedown move. Mr. Garner was obese and was laying on his stomach...it was also stated he had a weak heart and asthma. Couldn't it be possible this is why he 'couldn't breathe'?
I hope your pig buddies understand that what comes around, goes around. They have set the Rules of Engagement. And the "Legal" system has shown itself as a mockery. Your "Law Enforcement" and their families may soon get to enjoy the fruits of their labors. Under their very own rules.
I should have read further, down to this comment of yours. I took you at your word that there was some question, and followed the links up about in your comments, because I thought perhaps I might have misjudged this case.
I had some fairly lengthy discussion I was going to put in about that audio - granting some points, strongly questioning other conclusions. I had even scratched down some notes about it and typed up some things to cut-and-paste, as I thought it a worthy examination.
But now I won't bother. You are clearly just a bigot who had made up his mind long before any of the facts were in, because Narrative is supreme. I'm keeping my notes in case some decent reasonable person who sees things differently than I do shows up, but it ain't you.
TRANSLATION: "I support the rioting and looting, e.g. the 'festivities'."
More accurate translation:
It's time for your pigs and their whores to enjoy the fruits of their labors under their very own Rules of Engagement.
No offense, I usually don't get personal with people.
But I have to say this. People like you make life worse for everyone. You think you're so right in your opinion you're willing to use anger and hate to achieve a goal that may not suit others who disagree with you.
That's unfortunate. It's sad there are still people like you in the world, but hey - that's what makes the world go round. Good thing most of us don't have time for people like you.
I believe I read this was his 8th arrest in a very short time for the same "crime". I would think the arresting officers should have known that there were health issues. Maybe not.
But I still part company with those who defend the officer(s) and what happen here. He told police he couldn't breath, and they did nothing to allow him to breath.
At least the officer's defenders can breath deep.
And so, the country becomes more divided.
Stop making excuses for deplorable behavior by the police. You seem to be just guessing what may or may not have happened. based on your own opinion and maybe bias. I hope the city pays out millions for this mess that their poorly trained officers created. They don't get to do whatever they want. They live in the same society of laws that the rest of us are made to follow.
You know, it doesn't take much to see the chokehold if you watch the video, and it doesn't take much to see 4 cops wrestling him to the ground while his hands are raised.
Where was the 'resistance'? Perhaps before the camera was turned on? Maybe - even so, that makes no sense to resist, then raise your hands.
All through the video, you can hear him say he can't breathe, and you can see the arm around his neck.
I'm actually surprised anyone is willing to defend the cop who did it - a cop with a questionable record (as was reported on local news this morning).
Resisting arrest is a crime.
The penalty is not death on the spot.
In New York City, it is. As well as in MANY other places across this country.
In 2012 there were 228,000 misdemeanor arrests in NYC. Not one person died. None.
From here this looks like a physically very ill person that simply couldn't handle the stress of the situation. He was not put in a choke hold.
This was a tragedy and a huge waste of police resources. 4 or 5 police officers sent to corral a man for selling cigarettes? WTF? Have all the other criminals in NYC have been caught and now they are down to arresting people on the street for selling loose cigarettes? A legal product? Time must be heavy on the hands of the NYPD if they are going after desperado cigarette salesman. Sheesh...
But I guess this is what happens when the criminal organization that calls itself government fears it isn't getting every last penny of taxes levied on tobacco.
I don't know how to process this.
I appreciate law and order, expect it actually, from the taxes I pay.
Payoff to the mob, if you will.
But this, could have been handled differently it would seem.
Thugs on thugs no way to run a country.
Figure out a way to subdue large suspects, or small even, that precludes hands on. Not talking of pepper spray or some such,.
OK, in this specific instance, issue a ticket and walk away.
Unless you have never been pulled over for speeding and only gotten a warning, it is pretty standard for police to exercise discretion.
It seems that there was another altercation prior to attempting to arrest Mr. Garner as seldom do six officers (headed by a black, female sergeant who was out of camera range until near the end) show up to handle someone selling "loosies" unless something else is involved.
The person taking the above video and running the commentary was arrested a few days later for a gun violation, reminding one very much of Brown's companion Dorian Johnson who has been proven wrong on just about every point he made on endless TV interviews.
Eighty-year-old Michael Baden, who performed Garner's autopsy, certainly didn't perform well with Michael Brown's autopsy when he allowed an uncertified "apprentice" to manage the work and try to take over the press interviews.
As with the Ferguson shopkeeper and LEOs, these people were dealing with a 400-pound, 6'4"ish man who appeared to be antagonizing them, "on" something or both. The mayor ought to release the grand jury files as the ones from Ferguson certainly led to an understandable decision, if not the one that many wanted as an excuse to burn, loot, riot and move their agenda forward.
"The darn guy turned a little misdemeanor arrest into a deathly accident."
Which guy are you talking about? By my understanding, it was a police officer who killed a man (accidentally? Sure) over a misdemeanor.
Police brutality is a real issue, but a good percentage of the opportunities police have to do this come from enforcing petty laws.
Watch 'COPs' (anecdotal and biased, I know) and see how many of those filmed traffic stops turn serious simply because of narcotics possession.
Or this guy - http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/04/in-phoenix-another-fatal-police-shooting - who got killed after a police officer walked away from a buglary report to look into a report of a drug deal.
I think its time we changed our lawmaking philosophy from 'there oughtta be a law' to 'are we willing to kill someone who breaks this law'.
"Resisting" arrest is ANY attempt to NOT comply with the officers and what they are asking you to do.'
That's not resisting arrest - cops do not have blanket legal authority to compel obedience or arrest. If the cop is illegally arresting you then you are well within your rights to resist.
1. I don't think garner was being 'illegally' arrested - so my definition is moot here.
2. You had best be damned sure you're in the right, 'cause if you survive the courts not going to be at all understanding.
Yes, it is:
" the crime of using physical force (no matter how slight in the eyes of most law enforcement officers) to prevent arrest, handcuffing and/or taking the accused to jail. It is also called "resisting an officer" (but that can include interfering with a peace officer's attempt to keep the peace) and is sometimes referred to merely as "resisting.""
He was resisting. The police had the right to act. It was unfortunate this man's health was so poor that he died under the duress.
What makes me uneasy is that I can't seeing him doing what I would call resisting. Protesting a bit, sure. I'm willing to grant that I'm missing some context, but the video alone doesn't give me a good feeling about the cops' judgment in putting him down the way they did: it seems like a massive response that ought to be implemented only in case of a serious threat, not some momentary reluctance. That the particular take-down method led to his death I'm prepared to accept as a fluke related to his size and health, if there's good evidence for that, but the video is extremely unsettling.
That's before we even get to the utter triviality of his offense.
On the video I watched, I could not hear what the police were asking or saying to Garner. I could only hear Garner. Since they eventually moved in and took him down, my guess is they were asking for his compliance and he refused to give it. He supposedly was selling loose cigarettes, which the New Yorkers consider a crime worthy of arrest. It doesn't matter the offense, if the offender is resisting, the police have every right to be overly cautious when arresting/detaining him. That includes taking him to the ground with force.
When, in any city, is selling loose cigarettes a crime worthy of arrest?
It's a misdemeanor. At worst, it's depriving the state of tax revenue because taxes on cigarettes are absurdly high to begin with.
I have no problem with depriving the state with revenue (even if the police are there to force us to pay what politicians feel is their 'taste' of our earnings), and I have a huge problem with cops using force to coerce compliance with tax law.
You make an assumption about what cops were asking him to do, then ignore his hands in the air, and make more assumptions about what cops are allowed to do in NYC (or anywhere). Selling 'loosies' should be a ticketed offense, at worst. Why get physical with a guy trying to make a buck?
This is the problem with police, the big problem I have with them - too many are wrapped up in themselves and their power trip.
Generally, I'm fine with basic community policing and managing to lifestyle crimes - but when they take policing to ridiculously absurd physical levels, as in the Gardner case, that's too much for me.
I've seen cops get stupidly physical with young adults, simply because they could. Try and say anything, or take out your camera, and they'll go after you, too. That's a problem.
These cameras on cops may help a bit - but let's see how many 'malfunction' or are turned off.
I suggest that the vast, vast majority of people would find it impossible to NOT resist if someone restricts your breathing by climbing on your back and compressing your windpipe with their forearm.
I would also suggest that is well within any reasonable definition of a chokehold.
I too thought that there was a choke hold. Then someone pointed out that in fact that wasn't a chokehold but simply a neck takedown hold. I looked again at the video and indeed it wasn't a chokehold. Then in a TV interview Bo Deedle pointed out that if you are being choked you can say repeatedy "I can't breathe". So he wasn't being choked. So what was going on. Finally we hear that Mr Garner had asthma AND a bad heart. Well in my experience the "I can't breathe" thing is clearly his asthma acting up. So it seems to be clear that the death was not from choking and the take down was classic by the book police takedown of a suspect resisting arrest and the death was the result of a health issue of the suspect and not something the police did. So why should the police be punished for this unfortunate death?
I must be out of it, but I watched the video and I don't see them doing anything wrong.
The takedown arrests I have seen were done just like this. You talk back to the police and resist, especially where you have a long history of confrontations with them, and this is what is supposed to happen to get the suspect under control with a minimum of violence to themselves or others.
Obviously, their behavior did not cause his death.
To those of you who don't have any problem with the actions of these police officers, I would suggest you would have a problem with it if you were on the receiving end of this arrest and died. But then if you were dead, you wouldn't be able to have a problem with the actions of these police officers. All your next of kin could count on is the someone with a phone taking video exposed it to the world.
Maybe all it would take for your perspective to change is for your child to die in a similar manner, and you got to see the video.
"I would suggest you would have a problem with it if you were on the receiving end of this arrest "
That begs the question. If I had been on the receiving end I would have offerred them my wrists for the arrest and there would have been no take down. But what you and everyone complaining about the arrest miss is that the take down was classic and virtually harmless. There was no chokehold, there was no slamming to the ground. If all arrests of people resisting arrest were like this I would want to give the police medals. ALSO the man died from asthma. Anyone who has seen a serious asthma attack would recognize this. Perhaps you can fault the police for not recognizing that and calling for medical help but in fact in couldn't possibly have gotten there in time anyway. I think the Grand Jury was right.