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Wednesday, March 24. 2010
Jesse Abbate with Glock 18 on full auto:
This was an ad for a vacuum cleaner. I need one of those Rowenta vacuums:
Tracked: Mar 25, 08:02
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Heh. Clever vacuum ad. But are they reaching the right demographic?
Must be a Dyson. Finally BD, your hunting secret has been revealed.
You better watch out BD.
Posting Tea Party videos like that could be construed by the MSM as threatening congress.
It's horrible the way you right wing wacko bigotts automatically threaten violence when our beloved leaders try to help the poor and downtrodden (while exempting themselves).
BD. On occasion you have mentioned your wonderful cooking skills with the game you bring home. I seem to recall that you have mentioned making stock. Remind me again please what size stock pot you use; we are getting older and the 16 quart looks like it might be bit heavy for me when filled with birds, liquid,etc. Have you used a 12 qt is it too small to make the effort worthwhile?
Thanks guys for the shotgun info. I have it on my wish list!
Ok gentlemen, with regard to shotguns--does this look like a good choice?
--that depends o what you want it for, AP. Barrel length governs killing range, so if you want to bird hunt you want a longer barrel. However, the short barrel of the gun in question makes it easier annd quicker to handle, especially indoors, so if home defense is your goal, it's as good a choice as you can make.
Note that these capabilities are pretty much marginal --that is, you gain or lose five or ten percent of capability at one end of the scale or the other --you can bird hunt with an 18" barrel and you can home defend with a 30' barrel.
The same applies to the barrel's choke, whether full (a little harder to hit the target, a little more kill range), open (just the opposite), or modified (in-between the other two).
A 20 gauge had most of the capability of a 12 gauge but with less 'kick' --the differences pretty much of the same order of magnitude as the differences noted in the previous two paragraphs.
"Synthetic" is 'vs wood' on the stock and forgrip, and is a 'paper or plastic' question. Syn is less prone to damage, wood is more pleasing to touch and behold --or the opposite, depending on which side of the argument you fall on. Personally, i like wood --it's just more 'right' to me, and tho i wish i could, i can't be more specific, it's 'taste' --both deep and unknowable and largely inconsequential and irrelevant to import.
Now Hear This, Now Hear This:
Your choice of ammo will be VERY NEARLY as important as your choice of weapon. In a way, the weapon is just a bit part of the system of delivering a certain ammo to a specific target in a particular manner in order to achieve a defined effect.
Lastly, before you purch, do some search on the price --the net has enormous info --you don't want to alienate a seller to save five bucks but you also don't wan't to overpay by too much, is the way i see it.
PS: th ammo question is a large subject i hate to tackle here, but the simple principle is, to your ends you have two parameters, the amount of gunpowder and the amount and shape of the 'shot'.
PPS: To each of these two parameters, several questions attach. The answers to these questions are of the same order of importance as the differences in the gun.
AP, this wiki on 'shotgun shells' may be more info than you need. If you don't want to to exhaust the subject, and want an all-around shell, just ask for a "medium load" (refers to powder) #6 (say, 'number six') shot, and buy the well-known manufacturers.
You can hunt the big birds and/or defend hearth both, with #4 or #6, six being a few more beebees with only a bit less penetrating power than four.
special note: many folks will load a home defense weapon with a series of differnt shell types. if you want to store on emprty chamber, and hold three shells in the magazine, you can load to where the first fire wll be a field load (low power) #9 (many beebees with low penetration). This is a shell at the low end of the large animal killing range, it will kill an intruder but is the least likely to, and most likely to 'wound'. This may or may not be your choice, but in a courtroom is a point in a shooters defense, that had the intent been to kill, the load would not have been the light birder but the say, Magnum Double Ought.
Double Ought, that is max killing power (tho few large beebees makes it a close-range shell, as the 'spread' at distance is so side and gappy), would be the last shell of the three in the magazine, the killer if the first two didn't clear the threat and the threat is approaching closer.
An idea is have the shell firing order set (assume you will have no time to do anything but grab the gun and assume firing stance --if this assumption is wrong, all the better in the event).
1) 'first to fire off', your max-kill (in case one shot is all you have time for) --and remember that it can be fired off as a warning shot.
2) Second shot might be that 'wounding' shot discussed above, light-load, small shot, at the ready once you've fired off the warning shot, and
3) the third of course is your final chance and must aways be a kill shell.
there are many other ways of doing this stuff, particular to situations and personalities and probabilities. My goal with this comment was just to open the subject up for you, just in case you would not have thought about it otherwise.
IOW, I'M NO EXPERT --
Thanks Buddy--that is exactly the information I needed to get a good start on this process. I appreciate your thoughts and time.
almost forgot: I prefer wood also, but am looking to lighten the load as best I can.
That's all you need, as a decision-maker 9tho the wt diff IS small).
Another important point, AP: set aside various legalities for a moment, and just know that you can put more than three shells in most magazines. There's a spacer in there, known as a 'plug', which limits per most statutes the magazine to three shells. Home defense logic requires the removal of same (takes but a moment) and a full-capacity (with the 870 five shells i think) ammo load, on a for-safety-sake-unless-you-accept-the-added-accident-chance empty chamber (in which case you could keep six rounds in the gun).
Check your local laws, tho, and keep lawsuits and juries and judges and such in mind.
At any rate, if you fire threee and are empty and do not have time to reload --say there's two threats in the house and the first is nullified but the second is close on you --he will know about the extra capacity and if you act like you're still in business after three fires, well, you have a bluff left even on empty. far better of course to reload but a threat can cover a lot of ground toward you while you're doing so.
Dad had a 12 guage, an old Winshester I think it was, had a hammer, it was a pump, 1898 or something, kinda a famous old gun. My brother got it, dang it, but the first time I shot it, age about 14, it nealy knocked me over, and gave me a bruise on my right arm. Ever heard of the model?
That it? I had one, too, bought as an investment, then got soft hearted (or headed) and gave it to my young nephew, who had fallen in love with it.
look at where your shoulder will be relative to the line of the barrel --that's gotta be a five inch drop. It does give the gun a great old timey look but that setup in a rigid works will for sure kick the fire out of you.
AP, check out some double-ought (AKA "0-0") results on Wild Bill Doolin, a wild west outlaw's post-mortem pic down at the bottom of the page. mercy!
I say the picture buddy--gives a good example of what the result can be.
What are your thoughts on Browning, or Beretta? Both of these offer junior guns, or ladies guns. I have read about getting it fitted and will do that first thing no matter which gun I buy. Worried about arm and hand strength.
AP, those are great brand names --Browning is the acknowledged mechanical design genius of the planet, Beretta perhaps the fit & finish masters of aesthetics and lightening the weight. Think Henry Ford and Jaguar.
my dear, if you are concerned about handling the3recoil and whatnot, it is largely a matter of technique --most people who suffer from 'kick' are failing to hold the stock hard enough against their shoulder --it's counterintuitive to hold the weapon tight against your shoulder, and so inexperience leads to a sloppy 'welded' unit of human and gun --and any space or lack of pressure between flesh and buttplate equals a harder kick.
You just need to try some 20 g 'field loads', with a shooter nearby to show you how to gather the recoil, and you'll be okay --an eight year old can handle a lite load in a cut-down 20 g.
BTW, all else equal, a heavier weight --i mean the number of pounds the gun itself weighs --absorbs more of the recoil energy itself, rather than sending it to you --again diff is slight, and again, counterintuitive. But, do have your trend ratios run in the right direction in your mind.
Important, AP, for handling concerns, you should shoot the 20 alongside the .410 --.410 is the smallest bore of all. At a given shot size (meaning that #4, #6, #9, etc, number) and shell design, .410 throws less shot than 20, which throws less than 12 (there's more rare 10, 28, and 16 gauges, too, but shells are not as widely available, and a sufficient differentiation exists with the three gauges more common).
But the range characteristics of all the gauges, all else equal, are the same --as is the penetration (lethality) all else equal in the shell.
You just have less 'shot' in the smaller gauges, thus more chance of a miss or a wounding shot --and thus less lethality, again, all else equal per the shell shot size and load within the gaugue size.
Another point, if a lighter weapon --after some training with the next heavier gauge --makes you more confident and more 'at-one-with-your-gun' --then a better-protected gunner you'll be. The more ease, confidence, mastery, the more your shots will be better placed, and better placement quickly makes up for the lighter weight of shot.
For example, if you put a good .410 hit on a threat, he is as nullified as he would be with a partial or greater-distance 12 g hit, and the diff is not really all that great. The other concerns may very well make the trade-off come into your favor.
Look into it --there's a whole school of thought that actually recommends the .410 for ladies.
If you shop 'em, you'll run into Mossberg a lot. Mossberg doesn't have quite the curb appeal of the three brands we've talked about, but a Mossberg gun is arguably a better value for that very reason --and it is a good gun, an excellent gun, as good as the others out to the last percent or two (if that)of aesthetics and durability.
Why ever you like one pair of shoes or jeans over another of the more or less same makeup, is why ever you'll like one shotgun over another. You won't even know why, sometimes --the reason will be buried deep in your formation. So, "shop" until you find "your" gun! But don't go too far afield in the search --remember it's just a damn gun --you want to act and get protected. give yourself a deadline of some sort, then execute on it and get to practicin'! --is my advice to the distaff gunner, having taught a wife and three daughters and a couple sisters and a mom, to shoot and or shoot better. :-) sorry for the loooong-windedness --
ap, all those references to 'all else equal' --what i meant was, the ratio of gunpowder amount to weight of shot and size of beebees within the given shotgun shell.
IOW, a well-placed ("center-mass") shot at a middle range (neither close-in nor far-away, say 50 feet) a lite load ("low brass") 2 3/4-inch #9 12 gauge is probably less lethal than a heavy load ("high brass") 3-inch #00 .410.
See what i'm getting at?
Also, one other tip --with 12 and 20 gauge shells around, it's possib`le to drop a 20 into a 12 by accident. then later you or another may load the gun with the proper 12 and not see the 20 that fell just out of sight in the 12's barrel. Then you fire the 12 and the 20 blows your barrel into one of those banana peel arrangements.
The .410 shell is so distinctive it will never be mixed up as the 12 and 20 often are. this is a safety feature in a busy household with first one than another handling the huntin' irons.
Buddy thank you again for the wonderful lessons--they help a lot!
You sound much like my beloved, we have two daughters. Hubby is a great shot, but has been hesitant to introducing us girls into the sport--he is coming around slowly because he sees the need for self defense. Up here we have serious four legged intruders (griz on the place last summer), but I am more concerned about the two legged ones! Would much rather call the Fish/Game folks to come "re-locate" the griz--if that is an option.
my pleasure, AP --hope it helped. That griz story is kinda scary --you better get you a gun, girl --better to have it and not need it than to ...oh well, you know !