Maggie's Farm

"If the whole universe has no meaning,..."

"If ?" The universe has no meaning without man's consciousness to contemplate it. Atheism is just one of hundreds of ways man chooses to ascribe meaning to something we cannot even grasp in our wildest imaginations.
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Hi Geoff,

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning." C. S. Lewis was an atheist and then a Christian apologist. I wonder why he doesn't go on and state what meaning the universe does have. Maybe he was smart enough to know that he didn't know; but it's too bad he was incapable of keeping his mouth shut.

I think this guy is funny:

Atheist n A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.

—Chaz Bufe,

But here's something that addresses the universe thing that is neither crabby or funny:


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson


The Freedom From Religion Foundation defines freethinkers as people who form opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief. Freethinkers include nontheists (i.e., atheists and agnostics - see definitions), rationalists, deists, and pantheists.

The Freethought Zone is a collection of essays which address misconceptions that many theists have concerning the nature of science and religion, logic, and the beliefs of nontheists.

One of the most common questions that theists ask nontheists is "Why don't you believe in my god?". The answer is that we simply do not see any valid reason for holding such a belief. In order to rationally believe any claim, one must first have credible evidence. There is, however, no credible evidence for the existence of a god. So nontheists don't believe in gods for the same reason that theists don't believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the gods of other religions. Stephen Roberts explained the difference between theists and atheists as follows:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

A misconception held by many theists is that nonbelievers reject religion because they do not understand it. Typically, nonbelievers understand the dominate religion of their culture quite well, often better than many of the believers. For example, here in the USA, where most religionists are Christians, many nontheists are former Christians who have examined the Christian religion carefully and rejected it as mythical. It is precisely because the former Christian was open-minded enough to question and honestly seek answers that he or she ended up rejecting Christianity.

Another common question for nontheists is "Why would anyone choose disbelief?". A rational person does not choose belief or disbelief; he or she chooses to apply reason to the question of the existence of gods, and if disbelief is the result, then so be it. There are, however, many benefits to the rational thinking that leads one to disbelief. For example, many nontheists are also secular humanists and have a much more highly developed moral system than theism usually provides, since secular humanists apply reason and empathy to decide what is moral, while theists usually attempt to apply the inconsistent and often irrational standards which come from their "holy" book. As another example of the benefits of reason over religion, consider the following quote from Robert Ingersoll:

"When I became convinced that the Universe is natural - that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, of the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust."

But I know what is behind The Force: Duct tape. It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together. :)
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"Feeling contempt for others is just too delicious to pass up, aint it Meta?"

That's your bailiwick, Hoss. You're the one who says Jews waste their time praying. I call that contempt writ large.

As far as your other maunderings.... where'd you get that? It is not written that theists have a complete misunderstanding of freethinkers. But I'll say it - theists have made up their minds based on faith. Freethinkers haven't. Now you tell me why you don't believe in all the other gods and why yours is the right one, and maybe we can talk.

Oh yeah.. and screw them frickin' stupid Jews, eh, AVI ??
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Geoff,

"Acknowledging a faith element is not a weakness of theism any more than reason is a weakness of non-theism." I don't think anyone has said this. In fact, just the opposite: faith and reason are the strengths of the differing beliefs.

Also, you are under no obligation to prove anything to anyone about your beliefs, so you will not get any disrespect unless you run up against someone who judges you because of your beliefs. That is not to say in discussion about religion, belief, non-belief there won't be judging - there always is. Certainly no one is looking at you with a critical eye.

But our data points really are very different as reason and faith are opposite foundations from which we think.
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That is more profound than you think, Jappy. There has to be a genetic basis for a person to be more curious than another, to be more rational than another, to think more deeply than another. Maybe there's a little rebel gene in there festering around the womb just waiting to take on what 'authority' says is true because he has a big dose of reason asking for reasons.
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