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Friday, January 5. 2007
Shamefully, furtively, guiltily†stolen in full from YARGB:
There is no conflict, and the whole Dawkins†thing is silly. From what I've heard, scientists are just as religious, or non-religious, as the rest of the population. Science and religion exist in entirely different spheres of experience.
Posted by Bird Dog in The Culture, "Culture," Pop Culture and Recreation at 07:12 | Comments (65) | Trackbacks (0)
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Don't feel guilty.
This has been a lot of fun with my evangelical atheist friends.
Apples and Orangutans--two utterly different systems of reality-ordering, I agree.
"Evangelical atheists" --beautiful. What zealous proselytizing I witness is almost always coming from a progressive secularist.
While religion and church donít own all (or even much) knowing of God, the material and logic world certainly canít deny or trump God in any kind of proof. The only argument here is between those who believe in the literalness (of human translations) of the Word versus those who vainly believe they can disprove othersí beliefs. Folly upon folly, as is my judgment of them.
Anyway, it seems that all of the arts and sciences from painting, poetry and music to psychology, biology and cosmology, all of our industry and leisure from plowing the fields, cooking and typing responses to this post to eating, watching sunsets and typing responses to this post :) are exercises in teasing out and knowing the face and mind of God. Of course, I think this as a lapsed Presbyterian corrupted by the high Episcopal Church :) and as one who really believes in a ĎGodnessí unity of Everything exalted and mundane and into dimensions incomprehensible (such as this response to a post.)
Gagdad Bob at One Cosmos likes to make a distinction between the "horizontal" and "vertical" planes of existence, which I think is a fine metaphor.
Dawkins is a shallow materialist who has an agenda rather than a quest, but deep materialists certainly exist.
The response of the two extremes to each other, is instructive, i think.
The one prays for the other's salvation; the other mocks the former's entire being--including their rights to their own thoughts.
C, damn, that was good. I want to say, you should write--but you already are writing. Anyhoo, that was very Spinoza-like, in that he said that merely having in your mind the notion of God, is miraculous, and the core manifestation of the Being.
uh, delete that "damn" --awkward slang considering the topic.
haven't read it, but have heard about it--i think it works the idea of survival adaptations, and how "trust" within a culture is vital to survival, and how religion--or i guess the love of God--is the only reliable source of that trust. thus we are "wired for God". ought to read it instead of speculating an imaginary Cliff's Notes--
Re #5, 6 Thanks, Buddy-the-real-writer, you are being much too kind. And, LOL, guess itís all in the wrist on how that d-word is thrown about.
C, yes--you run into the same problem using "shucks" as a throwaway expletive, in a discussion of corn-husking.
Globalization creating ever-greater need for trust, language is a fiendish problem. All the world's diverse cultures are ass-to-elbow, and still the multi-culti mind promotes such unconscious malignancies as bi-lingual education, AKA "keep Pedro on the lawnmower".
I guess it's easy to say, being of a dominating language, but if the species needs to build trust, well, we have to avoid the fate of those folks in the Tower of Babel, who talked themselves blue in the face at each other, but always in their own lingo and thus to no avail, to the point that the Almighty--apparently frustrated with the pointlessness of it all--just up and scattered 'em to the winds.
Not having read the tome in question I can say that if the reviewer did not mention Herbert Spencer as opposed to Charles Darwin then he/she missed the boat.
gravity--the "strong force" as Einstein had it? or was gravity the "weak force" and molecular structure the "strong force"? Anyway maybe it's Brownian Movement.
picture taken last spring right after Tai Chi and meditative "ommmmm" period.
I misunderstood your question, habu--you meant the universe inside our minds, I meant the universe outside--the "dry" (vs the "wet") universe.
Picture taken today trying to find the last can of Beenie Weenies in town .... Vienna sausage.
Jeez, that jpg looks a lot like the Valley of the Little Bighorn.
since we're trying to write ourselves a foothold (rather than slay/be slain by Crazy Horse), you could call it "Habu's Last And".
You were tracking correctly. I meant the universe. carl Sagan's billions and billions and billions ... what is/was the prime over of it all.
The big bang can't full explain it for you are still left with who put the bang in the bang she bang she bang.
I mean like wow, if you say gas exploded/imploded then where did the gas come from? Or are we talking about Gomer Pyle in Full Metal Jacket trying to "miracle" his ass over the obsticle?
In space/time, the universe at exactly half its current age, was the size of a basketball.
Habu, aren't you speaking of the contingency of the universe? Btw, your photos merit some serious contemplation and Buddyís #12 an Ďamení from us scattered ones of late.
but you're right--before the big bang, what was it? That's the thing, it has to be called something, and "God" works as well as E=MC2 and has the added flexibility that it pertains despite the lack of a man-figgered unified field theory. but note, it puts you right back where you began, at the spiritual/material divide--same place as Ug the Cave-Man contemplating the moon, or the light in Mrs. Ug's eye.
That basketball size is what we know today, or think we know.
I just heard from the mothership that it wasn't a basketball, sorry Dr. Naismith, but rather a large liposuctioned area of Rosie O'Donnell.
ah, Rosie, so furiously against guns, so well-protected by her bodyguard clanking along behind her strapped to the nine-millimeters.
The contingency of the universe, and really all we write of here are bounded by our empirical abilities which are, I am sure, as undefined as the topic under discussion.
In other words on the one hand we wants"proofs", the empirical road. Others counter that any "proofs" today are ephemeral, which we do prove almost daily.
" They see the appeal to inflation or quantum cosmology as dubious since these theories, especially quantum cosmology, are speculative and difficult to test empirically. Thus for cosmologist George Ellis and theologian Nancey Murphy, the fact that creatures capable of moral agency such as us have evolved in the universe is evidence that God designed the universe with the intention to create creatures capable of virtue, compassion, and self-surrendering love. They have thus made a major contribution to the Anthropic Principle in their recent work on the "moral universe".
Obviously i have no definitive answer or I'd have been on Letterman and Leno by now.
Just give me a nice filet mignon, fine wine, some Nat King Cole and I'll just look toward the heavens in wonder.
I do know that "reality" for me didn't hit until I got my Commander Cody decoder ring, and then a few years later when I constructed an unintended pup tent.
Habu, sorry! Just meant to give a name to what you were ruminating about (and to the Editor-God, I donít care about ending that with a prep).
It's all fairly tedious, anyway, yes?
And sophomoric. Better to help one's kid finish preparing those baked goods she's intent on sending to friends at faraway zips. My place is in the kitchen and this nun believes in an olfactory God wafting in deliciousness. You boys take care of the rest :)
welp you dun gon an dun sump'n now ..made a old factory inta a Nun with a prep ending and a smidgen of tedium don throwd in fur good measure.
now how'd ya do dat? i done be confuzed.
That anthropic idea still requires the leap of faith, tho, unless it means that mother nature does all these works, but doesn't know she is doing them, so, if you were a powerful being from another universe (say, wherever all that material draining out through Black Holes goes), you couldn't enjoy visiting this universe unless there was something around that recognized you.
I mean, our great works are nothing without a witness. Even the advanced primates just crawl all over Angkor Wat without a bit of appreciation for the architecture and history. And even the Bible is only some reassembled raw materials--wood, ink, basic stuff. Would mean no more than a pebble or a log without a witness--who can read it, and recreate the thoughts of the writers.
Ah, getting a headache...must go outside, now that the market has dry-cleaned me for the day.
go kick the pup.
Habu, tell PossumTater thatís all well. Real life here does really call, after all. Your points are well taken. Itís just that the default position to 99% of the jawing on the Internet is that a good steak dinner, civilized music and maybe face to face silly banter (and, oh, the fine wine) rate a bit higher on the gratification scale than all of the ponderings and pontificating we do.
And, still, you jabber, I jabber, we all jabber. Why for gosh sakes? Because we can have that steak dinner in RL and on-line ridiculous musings, too. What a civilization we have!
Oh-oh. Dyslectic dyspeptic writing. Please make that "that all's well."
I do know what you mean. that is why I asked the other day, on another topic, to what end are we doing all this ?
Now that's not a question an optimist would ask for there are many thanks we have to give in this country. That said I believe many of us feel the crushing pace of life, the once external threats now residing on our doorstep and we're not yet psychologically ready for the "Gathering Storm"
I will say it is most pleasing to correspond with the people here. If I sometime pontificate or get too boorish just send me $10.00 c/o habu and I'll mend my ways. You're a special treat.
You mentioned the default position for 99% of the jaw-jaw on the net being steak,wine etc. If I read the frustration in there it is that nothing actually gets DONE to change things.
Well as hericlitus said "Nothing is constant but change" it's just that much of the change I see, and perhaps you see isn't going in the direction we want it to. Well just keep your powder dry because I believe I'm a realist and I think we're in for some heavy weather for quite a few years. And believe me thats NOT the way I wanted it in my dotage.
ANYWAY...THIS IS A VERY HEAVY TOPIC AND IT'S FRIDAY.
NOT TO BE TOO PUSHY BUT WE COULD TALK ABOUT THE BEST ROCK AND ROLL BAND EVER
OR THE SECOND THREAD ABOUT WHY OUR NATIONAL GUARD HAD TO RETREAT FROM OUR SOIL IN THE FACE OF MAURAUDING HOOLIGANS .......not shouting just gone deef in one ear ..
(Uh, thatís in answer to your second question, you see.)
I really like Foreigner.....URGENT is so so sexy...
However I like the Eagles probably followed by the Allman Bros Band (original)
I saw James taylor on his first tour of the USA. His opening act was Carol King and it was two weeks before Tapestry hit the market..she did the entire album as a warm up. My date and I were blown away.
Oh, good times! They were mellow bookends to Janis and Jimi.
(Btw, am R & R illterate. Have no idea who Foreigner is)
("illiterate" misspelled, mistyped and misused on purpose, you see...)
Well the lacuna in your Foreigner knowledge is fine. Music is so individual anyway.
You're being generous, Habu :)
Whatís really weird for me is that a family member hangs with the next generation of the icons from our day- the Stonesí and one of the Beatlesí kids- when itís not about partying (doesnít like that scene). Word is theyíre nice and eccentric- one girl conversationally quirky and bright, another who gets by, and a guy musically brilliant and exceedingly well-schooled.
It sounds like they're well adjusted. The one's eschewing of the party scene will pay big dividends going forward.
Of course liking Mick and Paul, folks who could be their grandparents is simply like me enjoying The Big Band era (which I do) so it's, as they say all good.
I mean I can remember listening to an entire Ravi Shankar record of sitar music and I was the last of my group of friends to smoke herbal stuff. I was a jock, gym rat, and skirt chaser.
Yes, our music is nearly ancient history to the young 'uns, but surprisingly they're learning it, eating it up, while Mom here is enjoying more the new alt/ hard rock just because it's not an endless loop of oldies on the radio (which are classic, of course, but.)
Back then, I was slightly too young and maybe square to get stoned to the sitar (loved the music, tho'), but you lived an Age, man, even if as a straight-up kind of guy stretching himself to the zeitgeist and Experience. Lucky you! (And for not becoming a deadender stoner, too)
Doesn't anyone else here have an opinion on Darwin and God or Rock and Roll? Come on, imagine, people, it's easy if you try
Does anyone here remember a comic strip called "Rick O'Shay"? He had some nice thoughts on God and cows and . .
I first was introduced to Rick O'Shay by my sister-in-law in Montana. Down south I don't think he was syndicated. She has about ten of his strip autographed and framed...I think he's dead????
Anyway what i did see i liked.
But I will admit to not being a comic section reader. In fact I probably get 99% of my info off the net now.
Rick O'Shay--great strip--kinetic drawing, like "Calvin & Hobbes".
Buddy, where you be?
We be need'n some input on either rock 'n roll or God, unless you use to spraypaint Clapton is God which one say a good deal of in the late 60's
Try'in to drum up business here before I head back to the Mississippi and Huck ... yeah I was a good guy..herb was just a right of passage and part of the social fabric in Gainesville, circa 60's...I guess it's even bigger today and I have some empathy for those who get busted with a couple of joints on 'em but that's the way it is.
Habu, I be lucky-- a little allergic to smoke, so never the temptation. Clapton is god, though, which I belatedly say in the 21 C.
Let Dawkins try to disprove the existence of Clapton- a fool's errand
I had to go burn trash--big buildup. No service out this way, so I have a backhoe trench in a pasture, and can only burn when the ground is wet, no wind, & not too muddy to drive out there (hate ruts). Always hate garbage detail, all that crap you just brought home from the store. Can only save so many empty bottles and boxes tho. Glass jars with good screw-on lids bother me for some reason. I mean, if you needed one, say on a desert island, it could save your life, and here i am burying 'em by the bushel.
Talking Heads was the last band I really really liked. Now I'm back into piano--jazz, blues, honky tonk.
Clapton, haven't really been excited about later stuff--but "Disraeli Gears" and "Blind Faith" are two all time great favorites. when the mood hits.
Madame, the time has come to go down to the levee and join Huck for more Mississippi adventures.
P-Tater says hi and reminds you to stay out of drafty doorways.
Habu, enjoy your sacred irreverent wonderful 'ventures . BL, "later stuff" by any recording artist might should be banned by law. No chance Pelosi's Congress will take it up, though. Dang Dems.
We have strayed from Darwin. Might I suggest Leon Russell, or Country Joe and the Fish, or Albert King, as a path back to the subject at hand?
yep, "Later stuff" as F. Scott noted about "second acts" should usually be left not performed. But, ya gotta eat.
BTW, Opinion Journal has some good short pithy essays up, on the God & man topic, @
BD, Leon Russel, I bet you like Dr. John and Joe Cocker, right? Me, too. And I'm still trying to figure out the Anababtist remark--I'll dig it out somewhere, and be the better fer it, no doubt!
Editing some stuff for tomorrow and next week.
Dr John - yes. Saw him live at the Fillmore East, in the Jurassic. Joe Cocker...not so sure.
Anabaptist - apparently he is, whatever it means nowadays - other than that all heretics must be burned at the stake. Of that, I am certain.
Great short essay on William James--quite a feller he was. Sounds like he had A.D.D. pretty badly.
The essayist says, "Along with brother Henry and sister Alice, James has been hailed as a member of America's premier intellectual family."
Me and cousin Jethro and aunt Violet Sue are not gonna like that.
Thanks to C et al for this interesting and often articulate exchange!
This responsive typist also thinks thanks to Thomas Jefferson et al for informing him on Deism -- which, in a word, C seems to describe here.
And yes, How dare Dawkins try to explain away Eric Clapton!