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Thursday, July 28. 2011
I have posted about codes of behavior here, several times. It is an important subject for me, and it seems to me that honor is a core concept in Western Civilization (I cannot speak for alien civilizations because I am still struggling to understand my own.). U VA seems to be dealing with this subject now. One quote:
Perhaps the psychotics at the otherwise wonderful U VA are not aware that jobs have honor codes, citizenship has an honor code, all relationships have honor codes, science has honor codes, the professions and business have honor codes, supposedly academia has honor codes, every organization and club has an honor code, even the Mafia has honor codes - everything in civilized life is based on honor codes, whether implicit or explicit. That's why it's called "civilized".
Violate them at your peril. At the least, ostracism and social avoidance are unpleasant consequences of violations of mannerly codes, appropriateness codes, and honor codes. In real daily life, just one screw up often is fatal because nobody forgets. The Law only covers the most extreme violations of the codes.
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"Nuanced perspectives on crime and punishment" reminds me of a definition I once heard for the Scottish third-way verdict of "not proven," which was "not guilty, but don't do it again."
Reminds me of
"In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes." Judges
Not a good period for the Israelites.
We had to eject a member of our club for being rude to staff. Rude to staff just one time, and out. That's our code, and you are supposed to understand that code of gratitude.
I was having a discussion with my (Episcopal) priest one day about changes in the Church. He put forward that the Church needs to adjust to culture. I put forward that it was my understanding that the primary purpose of the Church was to propose that culture adjust to it.
I think the same principle is at work here with regards to the relationship between the student and the University. While there has to be some give and take between the two, the fundamental job of the student is to learn. It's the job of the University to teach. If the principles that the University is teaching are unfamiliar to students, especially if those principles are in conflict with the principles the students were taught in their culture of origin, then it is up to the student to adapt - or leave. It is not proper, useful or right for the University to change it's concept or execution of the principles of honor to conform to those held by the students.
I am an Assistant Scoutmaster in the Boy Scouts of America. One of the requirements to advance in rank from Scout through Eagle is that you must each time sit down with your Scoutmaster, who has a chat with you about your life in and out of Scouting and who will review what you did to pass your other rank requirements - one of which is that you must "live in accordance with the Scout Law and Scout Oath in your daily life".
I've done a number of these, all the way up through Eagle. We discuss a lot of things, but what I like to do is to ask them about the Scout Oath. "Please recite the Scout Oath." "On my honor, I will do my best, to do my Duty to God and my Country. ..." "O.K. Stop. Thanks. Tell me - what's your honor?"
The Scouts have never heard anyone ask this question of them until I do. It's interesting to see what their answers are - the youngest may simply say "I don't know." They get more sophisticated as they get older. Sometimes I get to ask it of kids at an Eagle Board of Review. Those Scouts are usually at least 14, but they're not from my Troop and I don't think anyone's ever asked them that question before either. It's a teaching moment.
Say it ain't so. I'm a UVa grad. The honor code is one of the things that sets the University apart from its peers. There is nothing racist about having rules of conduct concerning lying, cheating and stealing. If someone cheats, the punishment is expulsion. Isn't that what should be expected of all institutions of higher learning?
Honor codes world among people from a shared culture or subculture, not among a diverse mishmash of cultures.
I am also a U.Va. alum. I got to observe the workings of the Honor Code when I turned in someone who had cheated on a paper in a class I was teaching as a graduate instructor in the mid-1990s. Many colleagues in my department told me not to bother turning the student in because if it went to an honor trial, I would be made out to be the bad person and it wasn't worth it. Nevertheless, I went ahead and turned the student in. There was an honor hearing (the initial phase) and the student was charged with an honor offense. The next phase of the process was supposed to be that either the case went to trial or the student acknowledged the violation and left the university. Well, the student didn't exactly acknowledge the violation, but there was no trial, either. The student claimed to have a "contributory mental disorder" and under the Americans with Disabilities Act the university required the student to go for some therapy or something rather than having to go through the honor trial.
Needless to say, I'm not exactly surprised to see that this "investigation" is going on at U.Va. I'm dismayed, yes, but if the famous "single sanction" was being weakened and undermined in the ways I observed 15 years ago (either by having faculty members refuse to turn in students to avoid the hassles of the process or by making "accommodations" for "contributory mental disorders"), it stands to reason that such things have continued in the years since.
Absolutely. I agree 100% with the Leftists. 'Honor' is a racist, white, European concept alien to others and impossible to teach. As a 100% re-educated student and graduate of many diversity courses, I can affirm that one could expect non-Whites to have honor any more than pigs can fly.
y'know, I'm having a Billy Madison moment with your statement....
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Thank you for the humbling realization that something of worth can come from a Adam Sandler movie.
Reminds me of the comment a teacher made on a student's report card: "Your child sets very low standards for himself, and consistently fails to meet them.". This is but a symptom. The disease is more insidious.
The thug subculture and the multi-cultural "it's-all-good" mentality has created a generation of predators roaming the world like ravenous lions, looking to profit without investment, to harm without conscience, to destroy without building. The barbarians are inside the gates, and they are feeding on the carcasses of a once proud and honorable People. The elite in power are enjoying this Roman circus, complete with Christians being sacrificed. Loaves for the mob, then the decline, and soon comes the fall.
Jim, Your comment is exactly right and the essence of the problem Barrister posed. He even lists different kinds of Groups. From the beginning of time, social groups have "codes" that apply to members but not to strangers. By generalities, Minorities as a group unto themselves, do not see themselves or feel part of the larger stranger group (U Va in this caase) and therefore are not bound by the code. This is the damage of dividing everybody into minority sub-cultural groups. People do not feel part of the country/nation and their loyalities are to their group not your group. Eventually there is nothing to hold all the groups together (witness Yugoslavia) and it all comes apart in violence and looting. Blick
ErisGuy... Too bad of you not to examine more rigorously your mistaken conviction that 'honor' is a racist white European concept, alien to others and impossible to teach.' If you find it impossible to teach, you aren't trying very hard. And dragging in the irrelevant idea that honor is "impossible to teach" convinces me that you are not trying hard enough to do so. You have examples all around you of men and women living up to Western principles of honor and loyalty, even ancient ones like Macaulay's Lays of Ancient Rome, with Horatius At the Bridge -- "Then up spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate, To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late, And how can Man die better, than facing fearful odds, On the ashes of his Fathers and the altars of his Gods."
Or you could teach American History, if you would learn to respect it. Remember our Marines at the shores of Tripoli or 'Perdicaris Alive or Raisuli dead.' Or if you can't remember it [tut-tut] look it up.
I was fortunate enough to go to a college (not U Va) that had a strict Honor Code. We were trusted enough that when we took exams, we simply checked them out and were told to return the completed exam within the allotted time. As far as I know, no one cheated.
Then I got to law school and saw how institutions without honor codes operated . . . .