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Tuesday, February 21. 2017

Worship Music: What Is It Good For?

I find it embarassing

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Meanwhile, Rioting Breaks Out In Sweden

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Posted by Bird Dog in Hot News & Misc. Short Subjects at 07:45 | Comments (44) | Trackbacks (0)

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re: worship music

I think it's embarrassing, too. My parish has a contemporary mass on Saturday nights. Not quite the same, but most prayers and all songs are sung by a man with a mic and guitar. He's a good musician, it just doesn't sound like mass. The people who like it seem to be the under 30/over 60 crowd.

Last Sunday we sang Joyful Joyful We Adore Three sung to Beethovven's 9th. You can't beat that with a drum stick.

#1 Jack Walter on 2017-02-21 08:09 (Reply)

I'm sure it's not original, but one of my pastors had a rule about contemporary music in the service: If the words could be sung to your cat and still make sense, it's out of the service. Gets rid of all the indefinite "You" stuff.

#1.1 Another guy named Dan on 2017-02-21 09:19 (Reply)

The day thou gavest Lord has ended, a good Anglo-Catholic hymn.

#1.2 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 12:02 (Reply)

I think the best description of some contemporary worship music is 'mantra.' Very few lyrics, repeated over and over in some kind of trance.

I like some modern worship tunes, but the lyrics have to have meaning to me.

In the 70s this style of worship was part of the "Jesus Freak" movement, I think. More contemporary music with religious lyrics. We had some great songs back then...most were biblical verses set to catchy tunes. I still remember many of them.

But over the decades it has changed into simple lyrics that say nothing using 'radio' music no one can sing except the best singers. Ranges that are difficult to follow...the whole thing sounds like a roomful of people trying to sing along to the radio in their car.

I don't mind modern music, just would like something singable with meaningful lyrics.

#1.3 MissT on 2017-02-21 14:13 (Reply)

Those who find contemporary worship music (or worship, period) weak and irrelevant are invited to attend an Eastern Orthodox service. It's not much of an exaggeration say that if something wasn't in place by about 350, they don't do it!

#2 Ann K on 2017-02-21 08:55 (Reply)

how can you not be suitably impressed by the protestant theology of

Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
It's good enough for me.

#2.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 11:58 (Reply)

I've often struggled with why I have no problem at all with "Gimme That Old Time Religion" but get the hives when I hear "Holy, Holy, Holy" sung to the tune of "M*A*S*H." My church's "Coastal Casual Sunday," the fourth Sunday of each month, is something I simply can't get used to; it makes me grit my teeth. But why? Clearly it's not just that the tunes are too simple or the words too inane. Sometimes I'm tempted to answer "because I'm not four years old," but that can't be the whole story, since I can be very happy with some simple, repetitive chants (like Taize) or primitive gospel music. There's just something a little too Kenny Rogers tacky about it. Am I really talking about a class aversion?

#2.1.1 Texan99 on 2017-02-21 20:47 (Reply)

That's a good post, I wish I'd noticed it earlier.

For the record, the MASH theme is called "Suicide is painless."

#2.1.1.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-24 01:30 (Reply)

QUOTE:

Science journalism is going full leftist ... The article describes the geography of the featured discovery as being that of "Judah, an ancient kingdom situated around what is now Jerusalem." This seems like an awful lot of words to substitute for the word "Israel.

From the 10th Century BCE to Israel's destruction by the Assyrians in the 8th Century BCE, Israel and Judah were distinction political entities.

#3 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 09:04 (Reply)

QUOTE:

Why a Gay Liberal from New York Came Out as Conservative

It's not as unusual as that. Other than on the gay issue itself, there are many gays who hold generally conservative political views. Gee whiz, there are many blacks and Latinos who hold generally conservative views. It has taken a lot of work by Republicans to alienate these people sufficiently so as to keep them voting Democratic.

Gays for Trump: "You can disagree with me. You shouldn’t threaten to kill my dog."

#4 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 09:17 (Reply)

I guess you didn't read the article. The subject of the article was not that a gay man came out as a conservative. It's why he came out as a conservative. The LBGT movement is not about gays (or even the rest of they letters), but about politics and if you don't tow the line - in his case, he wrote a neutral article about Milo instead of a critical one - you're not welcome no matter "how gay" you are. Some in the "LBGT community" have disputed his genuine gayness. Caitlyn Jenner get's more grief from being conservative than being trans.

There's a similar thing going on with blacks and women. It's not as much about race or gender as politics. If you don't think the right way, your blackness doesn't count. If you're a conservative or even worse, a pro life woman, you're a female impersonator (ask Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison).

#4.1 mudbug on 2017-02-21 12:09 (Reply)

mudbug: I guess you didn't read the article.

We did, twice.

mudbug: It's why he came out as a conservative.

Guess you didn't read our comment where we provided a lament that people who disagree with gays for Trump shouldn't threaten to kill their dogs.

mudbug: The LBGT movement is not about gays

Of course it's about gays, as well as lesbians, bisexuals, and transgenders. What did you think all the hue and cry about gay rights and gay marriage was all about?

mudbug: but about politics and if you don't tow the line

Again, confusing means and ends. Many in the group are insistent upon some cohesion concerning forms of discrimination. Yiannopoulos may be pro-gay rights, but has turned his back on transgenders, racial, and religious minorities. He has also wielded troll-attacks against those he perceives as enemies, especially women and minorities.

As for his conversion to conservatism, there's more to conservatism than just thinking the left is intolerant of bigots, and those they accuse of giving bigots cover.

#4.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 12:20 (Reply)

Whatever.

To recap: Members of the LGBT are essentially disowned by the movement if you disagree politically regardless of your support of LGBT issues. The same goes with women and blacks. That makes the main issue politics and not about being gay, a woman, or a black.

#4.1.1.1 mudbug on 2017-02-21 12:56 (Reply)

mudbug: Members of the LGBT are essentially disowned by the movement if you disagree politically regardless of your support of LGBT issues.

That's not the case with Yiannopoulos, who has attacked transgender people, which is the T in LGBT, not to mention women and racial minorities. Meanwhile, he has defended pedophilia.

mudbug: The same goes with women and blacks.

Yes, people often get upset at people who provide cover for racism, misogyny, and antisemitism. That's to be expected. As to whether the author of the piece should have done more to expose Yiannopoulos's views is subject to debate, but that people were expressing their displeasure because they think Yiannopoulos is a bigot is not in question.

#4.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 16:09 (Reply)

QUOTE:

FAKE NEWS: Trump Never Said There Was a Terror Attack in Sweden – Liberal Media MADE IT UP

Still confused on the meaning of the term "Fake News".

It's not as if it was just the U.S. media that heard it that way. Trump said "you look at what's happening in Sweden last night." That means you look to events from the previous night. It was even front page news in Sweden. This is what was happening in Sweden on Friday night:

QUOTE:

6:42 PM: The famous singer Owe Thörnqvist had some technical problems during rehearsal for the singing competition ”Melodifestivalen”. (However, the 87 year old singer still managed to secure the victory the very next day.)

8:46 PM: Due to harsh weather in the northern parts of Sweden the road E10 was closed between Katterjåkk and Riksgränsen. Due to strong winds and snow in the region the Met office also issued an avalanche warning.

12:17 AM: Police officers initiated a chase for a fleeing Peugeot through central parts of the Swedish capital of Stockholm. The pursuit ended in police officers ramming the suspect at Engelbrektsgatan. The driver is now accused of driving under the influence, traffic violation and car theft.

Appalling despair in Sweden.

Sweden stood with us after Bowling Green. Today we stand with Sweden.

#5 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 09:41 (Reply)

What's it like to be wrong?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sweden-riot-rinkeby-20170221-story.html

#5.1 DrTorch on 2017-02-21 12:50 (Reply)

DrTorch: What's it like to be wrong?

Oh, was that Friday night? No one was hurt, and the rioters were dispersed.

#5.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 16:15 (Reply)

QUOTE:

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) -- Swedish police on Tuesday were investigating a riot that broke out overnight in a predominantly immigrant suburb in Stockholm after officers arrested a suspect on drug charges.

The clashes started late Monday when a police car arrested a suspect and people started throwing stones at them in Rinkeby, north of Stockholm. Unidentified people, including some wearing masks, also set cars on fire and looted shops....

Police were investigating three cases of violent rioting, assaulting a police officer, two assaults, vandalism and aggravated thefts, he said.

here

since you have a relaxed definition of rape, its not surprising you have a relaxed definition of riot.

#5.2 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 13:04 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: since you have a relaxed definition of rape, its not surprising you have a relaxed definition of riot.

No. This might meet your requirements, however:

San Francisco Giants fans take celebration to the streets after World Series win. Two people were shot, two stabbed and forty arrested, while vandalizing police cars and businesses.

#5.2.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 16:23 (Reply)

you disagree with the Swedish definition of rape.

why? what part of their definition of "rape" do you not think is "rape".

don't be a moral coward, stand up for your beliefs, repugnant as they are.

#5.2.1.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 16:34 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: you disagree with the Swedish definition of rape.

No. It's just to compare rape statistics, you have to use the same definition, which is not the case across Europe. For instance, until recently in Germany the definition of rape required the victim to fight back.

#5.2.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:26 (Reply)

just here to make you waste your time responding -- thanks for playing -- and expose you as pro rapist.

#5.2.1.1.1.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-24 01:31 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: just here to make you waste your time responding

Thank you for the admission of trolling.

#5.2.1.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-24 15:51 (Reply)

You are wrong, the quote is "look at what happened last night in Sweden..." And I know EXACTLY what he was talking about...Tucker Carlson's show that had been on the night before talking about Sweden.

This was Trump talking extemporaneously, he was running through what he'd seen 'last night' on Carlson's show and then launched into not only Sweden's problem with terrorism, but France and others.

Look, someone on the news this morning said it very well...people have to get used to Trump's style. He uses a lot of hyperbole and stream-of-consciousness. You cannot hold someone to perfection and pinpoint accuracy in their every day speech, can you?

Get used to his style, Zachriel. I knew exactly what he was talking about, so did the crowd, only the press and those who don't like him try to find 'mistakes' or 'lies' that they can crow about.

Why didn't the press go ahead and find out what was going on in Sweden as a whole, rather than fixate on 'last night'? So so silly.

#5.3 MissT on 2017-02-21 14:19 (Reply)

Exactly. Well put MissT

#5.3.1 Hank_M on 2017-02-21 14:30 (Reply)

MissT: I know EXACTLY what he was talking about...Tucker Carlson's show that had been on the night before talking about Sweden.

Oh, was Tucker Carlson's show "happening last night in Sweden"? You do realize that the vast majority of the world doesn't watch Fox News?

MissT: I knew exactly what he was talking about, so did the crowd, only the press and those who don't like him try to find 'mistakes' or 'lies' that they can crow about.

Well, those people, and nearly everyone in Sweden. (They do count as people, by the way.)

#5.3.2 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 16:34 (Reply)

what's your problem with the Swedish rape laws that I quoted in 7.1.1? what part of their definition of "rape" do you find excessive? what part of "rape" is not "rape"?

and why are you excusing it?

#5.3.2.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 16:56 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: what's your problem with the Swedish rape laws that I quoted in 7.1.1?

We responded in the appropriate sub-thread.

#5.3.2.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:28 (Reply)

you didn't respond at all.

you evaded the question I asked.

using the editorial "we" is always a sign you're panicking.

#5.3.2.1.1.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 17:31 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: you didn't respond at all.

Indeed, we did. Your response belongs there. (Not sure why you insist on cluttering up multiple sub-threads on the same topic.)

#5.3.2.1.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:36 (Reply)

QUOTE:

Does crowd size really matter?

Trump: "if they are small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there is no problem. I guarantee."

#6 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 09:58 (Reply)

Sweden has over the last 15 years become number 2 in rapes second only to South Africa. How does Sweden deal with this dubious honor? The hide it. It is against the law to even say publicly that the Muslim/African immigrants are committing crimes. When these crimes are committed by Muslim immigrants the Swedish news does not report the criminals connection with recent immigration. The victim is encouraged to be silent and not pursue justice as that would appear racist. There are places in Sweden where the police do not go. The Muslim immigrants call them "no-go zones" but the pokice and Swedish citizens cannot call them that under threat of being charged with PC crimes of racism. On those rare occasions when the police do go into these zones they must go in large numbers and are attacked by the immigrants. The police are not allowed to speak of this publicly as it would appear to be racist. Is there a problem in Sweden caused by Muslims? No! And don't you dare say that or you will go to jail.

When I see some of these riots not just in Sweden but in France and Spain I always think "don't these policemen have guns?" If you and your fellow police are doing your duty and come under attack and the attack does not stop and police are injured why wouldn't you shoot???

#7 OneGuy on 2017-02-21 10:00 (Reply)

OneGuy: Sweden has over the last 15 years become number 2 in rapes second only to South Africa.

That is incorrect, but a misunderstanding of the statistical differences in methodology between countries. Sweden reports as rape many incidents that would not be reported as rape in other countries. The higher incidence of reported rape predates the immigration of large numbers of refugees, while population surveys show the incidence of rape is relatively consistent over time, and in line with other European countries.

#7.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 10:26 (Reply)

once again, its clear you have no clue what you're talking about. if you think that Sweden is over reporting rape, please tell us what types of rape under Swedish law you don't consider "rape".

here is the translated version of the rape law in Sweden. I could link the origin, but since you never give primary sources, for now, look it up yourself.

QUOTE:

§ 1 Anyone who by assault or otherwise by force or by threat of criminal acts are forcing a person to sexual intercourse or to undertake or endure another sexual act with regard to the violation seriously is comparable to sexual intercourse, shall be sentenced for rape to imprisonment for at least two and a maximum of six years.

The same applies to a person performs a sexual intercourse or a sexual act in accordance with the first paragraph is comparable to sexual intercourse by improperly exploiting that person because of unconsciousness, sleep, severe fear, intoxication or other drug influence, illness, injury or mental disorder or otherwise, the circumstances are in a particularly vulnerable situation.
[sentencing provisions deleted]

according you you, what in the law quoted is not rape? don't evade the question like you always do.

#7.1.1 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 12:22 (Reply)

Vic Morrow's tommy gun: if you think that Sweden is over reporting rape, please tell us what types of rape under Swedish law you don't consider "rape".

For instance, until recently in Germany the definition of rape required the victim to fight back, while simply saying no was sufficient in Sweden. Sweden also has a more expansive definition of rape, that might be counted as a sexual assault in other countries. Other factors include recording multiple rapes, such as a husband forcing his wife many times, which in other countries are typically reported as a single crime. If a rape is reported, Sweden counts it as a rape, even if evidence later indicates that it didn't qualify as a rape under the law. Finally, Sweden has worked to encourage victims to report rapes, while in many other countries, they are discouraged by culture or by mistreatment by authorities. See Von Hofer, Crime Statistics as Constructs: The Case of Swedish Rape Statistics, European Journal on Criminal Policy and Research 2000.

Finally, population surveys indicate that incidents of rape in Sweden are consistent with other European nations, such as France and Britain. See European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights, Violence against women: an EU-wide survey 2014.

#7.1.1.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:22 (Reply)

And I suppose the burning cars are a result of the different way that Sweden reports burning cars. And the riots in Sweden two or more people is a riot so 50 African immigrants burning cars and raping women is just another one of those riots no different from two Swedes standing on a street corner. And when a riot cop is hit iin the head by a rock thrown by an African immigrant it is simply irrational exuberance or something.

I still do not understand why they don't shoot them. At the least you would think the police would use rubber bullets and then go put them in custody to stand trial for assault, burnng cars, rioting, rape, whatever. I may be wrong but my gut tells me that if refugees rape someone's daughter/wife/girlfriend here in the U.S. and the police refuse to even acknowledge it that some home grown justice will be dispensed. Women in the U.S. are the fastest increasing demographic of concealed carry. Just saying...

#7.1.2 OneGuy on 2017-02-21 13:57 (Reply)

OneGuy: And I suppose the burning cars are a result of the different way that Sweden reports burning cars.

No, but the definition of "riot" seems somewhat flexible. Foir instance, when white sports fans set fires, it's frequently called "unruly" celebrations.

#7.1.2.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:32 (Reply)

zachriels you appear to be an apologist for rape.

are you going to explain what part of the Swedish penal code you think defines rape excessively?

#7.1.3 Vic Morrow's tommy gun on 2017-02-21 14:43 (Reply)

: are you going to explain what part of the Swedish penal code you think defines rape excessively?

We responded in the appropriate sub-thread.

#7.1.3.1 Zachriel on 2017-02-21 17:33 (Reply)

It's just all fake news. Made up fiction, OneGuy. These pictures came right out of the same studio that helped fake the moon landings! It all depends on how you open the lid to Schrodinger's box.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-20/meanwhile-rioting-breaks-out-sweden

#7.2 B. Hammer on 2017-02-21 12:44 (Reply)

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyREJRz8wNI

#8 ahem on 2017-02-21 11:48 (Reply)

Orthodox 'Behold the Bridegroom' sung at Pascha:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsxxJNpZtHA

#9 ahem on 2017-02-21 11:50 (Reply)

You've got to watch the hilarity that ensues when liberals are asked to actually house Syrian refugees themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9zIzIePjpo

#10 mary on 2017-02-21 12:43 (Reply)

Re Worship Music - I commented there: "I have been reading this article for decades. This was done more artfully than most.
Ask yourself the next question: if this is well-known enough to be a cliche, and people who regard themselves as deeper thinkers have been railing against it for years, what does it provide to people so they don't just get rid of it? Think like an anthropologist."

As for repetitive, you might recite the lyrics to Handel's "Messiah."

I have plenty of worship music I don't like and older music that I love, but also recognise that my preferences are not the fully-logical attitudes I might pretend to. They are conditioned by my own past and emotions. Vic Morrow's tommy gun has it right that there's a lot of crap amidst the older stuff, too. Not that the Catholics do any better these days. People try. We are not a unified, geographically constrained culture as the small European nations were, so music that evokes both thought and memory is much harder in America.

As for science journalism, January 2017's cover story was a transgender 9-year-old. That's geography for you, eh? I thought I caught this month's cover as natural remedies.

#11 Assistant Village Idiot (Link) on 2017-02-21 17:27 (Reply)

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Tuesday, February 21. 2017

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