We are a commune of inquiring, skeptical, politically centrist, capitalist, anglophile, traditionalist New England Yankee humans, humanoids, and animals with many interests beyond and above politics. Each of us has had a high-school education (or GED), but all had ADD so didn't pay attention very well, especially the dogs. Each one of us does "try my best to be just like I am," and none of us enjoys working for others, including for Maggie, from whom we receive neither a nickel nor a dime. Freedom from nags, cranks, government, do-gooders, control-freaks and idiots is all that we ask for.
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Sunday, February 17. 2013
Men should dress like men
Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year-Long Iraq War
Drones are taking to the skies in the U.S. - Federal authorities step up efforts to
Lady Pelosi: Cutting Congressional Pay Would Reduce the "Dignity" of the House of Lords, I Mean, Citizen Legislators
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Regarding men dressing like men...up here in the Pacific Northwest, and more specifically on the Olympic Peninsula in the shipyards, we don't have that problem. Of course, we don't wear ties anymore in the shipyards, but that doesn't keep men from wearing the clothing appropriate to the job at hand. (I noticed the article was all about how guys should dress...for the office).
Scarborough: Don't worry Joe, I never have.
Obama: ..., just control them.
Re: Fed's ammo buys
Levin's idea (that they were preparing for financial and social collapse) didn't occur to me, though it is a good one of course. My thought was that if they buy all the ammo production, the rest of us can't have any. Of course, one doesn't preclude the other and if both are true, then from the Obummer regime's point of view, that would be a two-fer.
Even Joe has seen how nuts Paullie "The Beard" Krugman is, though the commenters (first one, anyway) have drunk the Kool-Aid.
re: the picture.
And I am so proud that the one is representing us here in the Garden State!
Re: Lady Pelosi: Cutting Congressional Pay Would Reduce the "Dignity" of the House of Lords, I Mean, Citizen Legislators
the original purpose of paying members of parliament was to allow individuals who were not independently wealthy and could not otherwise afford to leave the farm/business to take a seat.
Scarborough: Paul Krugman is wrong - but don't take my word for it
It would help if the "senior economist" didn't cherry pick.
From the beginning of 2002, when U.S. government debt was at its most recent minimum as a share of GDP, to the end of 2012, the dollar lost 25 percent of its value, in price-adjusted terms, against a basket of the currencies of major trading partners.
Sure, returning to levels only somewhat lower than seen in the 1990s. In other words, 2002 was the anomaly, not the current level.
Scarborough: The U.S. share of global economic output has been falling since 1999—by nearly 5 percentage points as of 2011. As America's GDP share declined, so did its share of world trade, which may reduce U.S. influence in setting the rules for international trade.
Of course. The world is becoming more prosperous as previously undeveloped countries are entering the world markets. That's a good thing.
Scarborough: The debt crisis is real and waiting another decade to fix it is not an option.
Much of the deficit will be resolved by healthier growth. Deficits will have to be addressed, and it's best to have a plan in place, but immediate cuts would be counterproductive by stifling growth.
Yes, we must pay more in taxes, much more, so the government can spend it foolishly, and we can't. So there won't be growth, let alone healthy growth, and the only plan in sight is to spend money. Wisely ain't gonna happen. See: Solyndra, et al.
Remember, government Kool-Aid is no better than government cheese.
Jim Hoft: Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year-Long Iraq War
The U.S. government has about 100,000 people who are armed, from rangers to guards. The five-year buy of ammunition represents about two thousand or so rounds per person, including what is required for training.
Wrong again! The buy is now up to 1.6 Billion rounds, which--if your figure of 100 thousand armed federal officers is correct---amounts to 3000 rounds of ammo per person per year (assuming the purchase is for a 5-year span). That's a lot of ammo for training people, most of whom will never draw, much less fire, their weapons in the line of duty. And more worrisome is the fact that one-third of the current buy, half a billion rounds, is hollowpoint. Since when do PEACE OFFICERS in the US fire hollowpoint shells? Since when do they NEED that kind of ammo? Hollowpoint ammo is intended for killing, not incapacitating....which is why the Geneva Conventions outlaw that kind of ammo in warfare. People have a right to be suspicious or even slightly paranoid about what is going on.
the Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits bullets that flatten or expand in warfare because the wound channel is huge, more so than a through and through wound, which we humane people in the USofA get around by using a bullet that rotates forward and fractures, creating the same huge wound channel but Totally legal.
police and other LEOs use expanding bullets because if one has to use deadly force, the force must be deadly (or there's going to be hell to pay because shooting to wound means using deadly force unnecessarily), and because bullets that expand also expend their energy in the target, rather than penetrating through and striking an innocent bystander or blowing through an airplane fuselage.
personally I think these federal agencies don't know what the others are doing, and given how little they like sharing information, they're even less likely to like to share their bullets.
the government is stupid, but not ready to start kicking down your door at midnight.
Agent Cooper: if your figure of 100 thousand armed federal officers is correct---amounts to 3000 rounds of ammo per person per year
It's easy to use a few hundred rounds for a day of target practice. Many agencies require quarterly training. Hollow points are standard issue for federal law enforcement as they are less likely to ricochet and faster to incapacitate. Nor is it a purchase, but an open contract. The number of bullets purchased will depend on usage.
But really, Social Security bought bullets too. Must be those death panels in Obamacare.
Yeah, it seems that the arming of a lot of govt. worker types really got going under Clinton. I believe he starting more park rangers and other employees.
When did DHS start needing over a billion rounds of .40? Don't they have enough to worry about keeping guns and bombs off of airplanes? Don't we have FBI, police, Secret Service, etc. to take care of that sort of stuff? Why does the IRS need all the ammo they bought? Most of them are behind a desk working tax returns and auditing innocent people.
It seems that there are more and more govt. employees who are becoming armed now a days. Interestingly, that same govt. seems less comfortable with the rest of us law abiding citizens being armed. It was one of the Obummerites who said they basically agrees with Mao that power comes out of the barrel of a gun.
The problem is it isn't just Homeland security suddenly buying thousands of times more ammunition then they can use honestly a half dozen major agencies are doing it. But it gets even stranger; because these same agencies have also suddenly purchased tens of thousands of handguns. Zac and others would have us believe this is all for practice and after all there are a lot of government employees who are "armed". Well, they were armed before and they practiced before but this humongous purchase of arms and ammunition is unprecedented and seemingly unnecessary. What has changed? Why do they need enough weapons and ammunition to fight a war? What is the plan? There must be a plan unless you think it is some cosmic coincidence that half a dozen cabinet level departments decided to make massive purchases of ammo and weapons. What do they know that we don't? I would be so much happier if this were simply more examples of government stupidity and waste but is seems to be a coordinated effort to massively arm the entire federal government. Who are they afraid of? Who are they intending to shoot? If you aren't worried you aren't paying attention.
no one is going to fight a war with .40 and 9mm pistols.
Oh, thank god! For a second there I thought these were the same semi-automatic weapons that kill thousands of gang bangers every year not to mention the many innocent kids caught in the crossfire. I thought these might be the same semi-automatic guns the government is tryting to take away from civilians because they are too dangerous for us mere mortals to own. I thought these were real offensive/defensive weapons. Thank you for setting me straight that these semi-automatic guns are totally unsuitable for urban warfare. I do feel better now. If I am shot tomorrow by a 9MM OR .40 Glock or S&W I will be content in the knowledge that you consider these weapons too inferior to be used effectively in an urban environment.
But you might ask yourself; why? Why now and why such a massive purchase? What is planned (again unless you believe it is all coincidence)? We all know for an absolute fact that if some group of citizens who believed in the 2nd amendment and liked camo clothing and had a gadsden flag purchased millions of rounds of ammo and tens of thosuands of handguns the FBI would be camped outside their home (compound) and shooting at them and eventually set the home (compound) on fire killing them all.
I don't think I'm asking too much. I along with about 120 million other voters elected 536 men and women to run our government until the next election so we could continue to run our lives without having to bother with the day to day details of running a 4 billion a year bureaucracy and now they have done something very suspicious. They have taken a page out of Hitlers playbook from the 30's or Lenin's plans in 1917 and we want to know what they are planning. The president should appear on TV with the directors of these departments and explain to us the owners of this government what in the hell are they doing. Are you merely wasting money in the long tradition of the Democrats or what? They made the first open aggresive move and we want to know why?
feel free to consult the master, my padawan learner.
when the IRS agents with their .40 cal pistols Come To Get You, you'll be well armed with your 10 ga. Reminblaster SuperShort Shotty with heat shroud, bayonet lug, three point tactical sling, tactical ghost sights, tactical laser sights, tactical flashlight, tactical bi-pod and tactical warpaint.
I may be wrong, but if I recall correctly, the photos and video of street fighting in Afghanistan shows people primarily armed with sub/machine guns, grenades, rockets, armored cars, drones, etc. when the DHS or FEMA (what ever happened to FEMA? FEMA used to be the monster under the bed) tries to buy a billion M-16, then I'll be worried. even the jedi insurgents prefer AKs to 9mm pistols.
unless ... unless the Forest Service rangers gangbangers are loose in this country. then it makes sense.
I can assure you if any representative of the government, any LEO comes to my door doing their job I will comply with their requests and I certainly won't meet them at the door with any weapons or threats. I actually like and respect our law enforcement and having spent 20 years in the military consider myself to be more like a brother then a adversary to law enforcement. I respect the law and I love my country and the constitution. If I am ever so unlucky as to be arrested or otherwise brought into court then that is where I would present my defense and not at my front door.
You are not wrong almost any rifle would be more effective in a war then a handgun. But in an urban setting a handgun is pretty effective. If I were to choose a gun to carry with me for self defense it would be a handgun not an AR15 or shotgun.
Let's not get bogged down in ephemera the question is why does any civilian department of the U.S. government need billions of round of ammo and tens of thousands of newly acquired guns??? They owe us an explanation. They are not a power unto themselves they are our hired employees. They are not Czars or kings they are nothing more then employees. Unless there is a national security issue preventing them from sharing this with the public then they owe us an explanation. All they have given us is lies. Why?
I can assure you if any representative of the government, any LEO comes to my door doing their job I will comply with their requests
I wouldn't comply unless they have a warrant or an order or its one of the exigent circumstances where they're going to do whatever they want anyway.
Let's not get bogged down in ephemera the question is why does any civilian department of the U.S. government need billions of round of ammo and tens of thousands of newly acquired guns??? ... All they have given us is lies. Why?
this is an infowars link,
that's a link to the paperwork justifying the non-competition bid, its redacted but you can read most of the inked out redactions -- I did it with a pdf reader at 200%, if I took the time with photoshop-type editor, I'm sure I could read all of it plain as day.
infowars uses uses a screenshot instead of a link to the source, the redactions can't be read in the screenshot and this makes it seem seem ominous,argument by innuendo: the government certainly and improbably admitted DHS was stockpiling ammo to gun down Dissenters when the Big Roundup comes down.
but no, some of the redacted info identifies a a part number change in expired indefinite delivery, indefinite quantity contracts. DHS had some special load that passed its ballistics testing and wanted more of the same from the same contractor because its own stockpiles were low. this isn't scary stuff.
I credit the government with institutional stupidity and the kornspiracy nuts with dishonesty.
so what lies did the government tell you about the purchase of this ammunition? and, more important, what have you done to find the TRVTH (apart from reading material generated by or stolen from infowars and its ilk)?
As I said I would comply not roll over and give up my rights.
The problem with your explanation/excuse is it does not explain : 1)The enormous amount of ammo purchased. 2)The seeming coincidence of other major federal departments also making major purchases of arms and ammo. 3)The fact that they already had armed guards who had ammo and practiced/qualified regularly and this purchase was over and above that need.
The simple fact is something changed. To not have any curosity is, well, curious. Perhaps you have painted yourself into a corner because you so want to win the arguement and are willing to suspend common sense in a Zachriel like effort to win regardless of what you have to say to do it. The question remains. Why? Why do they need more ammo then the military could use in a war? Why do multiple agencies suddenly need all this ammo? What has changed or what are they planning? They owe us an explanation and in fact if there was a simple and innocent explanation I think they would be forthcoming with it. But they are silent and worse even trying to hide this purchase. Why?
and let me explain this again, they're not stockpiling billions of rounds of ammunition. these are open purchase orders -- IDIQ contracts.
if the government were hiring armies of DHS shooters to shoot the ammunition, you'd have a better argument. I might have thousands of 12 ga. shells at home but only in the eyes of gun grabbers is this suspicious; it doesn't make me any more dangerous than if I had only a hundred.
if you're suggesting that the government is planning a 20 year war against the public using DHS agents (look up what it takes to be and remain an agent, and tell me this is anything like an army) armed with .40 cal. pistols, then, that's just not common sense.
you didn't explain what you did to satisfy your curiosity. infowars and that type of site have conspiracy as their stock-in-trade, that's why they use unreadable screen captures of redacted documents whose redactions aren't actually worth reading. so why would anyone, not already predisposed to this nonsense from the beginning, bother with sites like that? do you honestly believe that the contracting officers would write "shoot civilians in case of civil unrest" and then redact it with a felt tip pen that's readable to anyone who makes the effort?
what have you done to "research" this?
these conspiracy theories all have the same traits, can't be disproved, have life only because they can't be disproved, substitutes argument (they must be planning something with all that ammo) for evidence (/crickets).
on another forum in another corner of the internets, UFO true believers are having the same argument with skeptics.
"not stockpiling" but they are purchasing billions of rounds of ammunition. I think this is a distinction without a difference. Tell me why I should be overjoyed that they purchased billions of rounds of ammunition but they aren't going to stockpile it.
Many years ago I was living in Southern California and around 11:00AM I noticed some smoke in the hills above the city. I pointed this out to my friend and we went to the gym and then to lunch. After lunch the fire was quite noticable and had spread a half mile in all directions and the wind had come up. Living near the foothills but a good seven miles from the fire I called my kids school to see what they planned to do. They assured me they wouldn't just let the kids out if the danger grew worse and in any event they would contact me before they did anything. So I went back to work. A half hour to an hour later I went back out and now the wind was worse the fire had more then doubled in size again and ash was falling from the sky. So I decided to drive home and wait for scholl to finish so I could be there when my kids got home. But when I got home there were already there, they school had lied or they simply changed their mind or they never had a plan and the person on the phone was just doing what bureaucracies do, whatever. By this time the wind exceeded 40 mph, there was a solid wall of smoke 100 feet above the city and the fire had covered about seven miles in three hours. My nieghbor was on his roof with a garden hose ready to die saving his house I guess. So I grabbed my two kids, phoned my wife and left for a safer place. If I had heeded the obvious warning signs earlier and if I had ignored the predictable "stay calm" talk from the authorities I could have saved more of our personal items. ON 9/11 I like most of us sat in front of the TV and watched. I watched as about an hour went by, more then enough time to evacuate the second tower and then the second plane hit. How many lives would have been saved if people had been a little more skeptical of the official story? How many more lives would have been saved if people were quicker to identify a serious problem? Through out history it is the same story again and again. Ample warning of impending doom/crisis, ignoring the warning signs and then paying the price. What purpose does it serve to have a canary in the coal mine if our only response is to ignore it's warnings? I live far from the big city and even further from the seat of government. I am not worried that tomorrow a TSA agent will knock down my door and put 2 9mm in my chest and 1 in my brain. But given our chainging political climate and who is in power I would not be at all suprised if tomorrow morning on the news I hear that in fact the TSA did exactly that to "tea party" protestors or other targets of the SPLC. I don't want our country to be like Germany was in the 30's and sadly the coincidences are stunningly similar. As a student of history I have long ago determined that Hitler could have been easily stopped before his murderous rampage but he was not. His rhetoric rallied the low information voters and those who wanted "free stuff" and those who felt "justified" hatred of the designated minority and they cheered him even when all the early signs of impending disaster were there. There were many honest "useful idiots" there as well who argued that the government isn't "stockpiling weapons and ammo". When you list all of the nefarious things that the left has done and is doing and look at them all in context you can't avoid the realization that something is wrong, something bad is happening. Open your eyes and your mind.
thanks for the response... I'm going to hold off on responding until tomorrow, considering recent events.
How many lives would have been saved if people had been a little more skeptical of the official story?
and what, exactly, was the "official story" at 9.00am on 9/11?
As a student of history I have long ago determined that Hitler could have been easily stopped before his murderous rampage but he was not. His rhetoric rallied the low information voters and those who wanted "free stuff" and those who felt "justified" hatred of the designated minority and they cheered him even when all the early signs of impending disaster were there.
as a student of history you should know that hitler wasn't voted into power by the people, he brokered a deal to secure the chancellorship between powerful interests -- the army, the conservatives, businessmen, the catholic center party, etc., who wrongly thought they could control him. then the reichstag voted him dictatorial powers.
There were many honest "useful idiots" there as well who argued that the government isn't "stockpiling weapons and ammo".
I'd be careful about how you use that phrase.
I don't know what you mean by governments stockpiling weapons. that's what armies and LEO agencies do, in a manner of speaking. and if you're worried about a billions rounds of .40 cal., why aren't you worried about the hundreds of thousands of machine guns, tanks, rifles, helicopters, howitzers and rockets the government already stockpiles? why would you worry about a TSA agent with a 9mm when there are combat veterans with M-16s out there, ready to to little barry's bidding?
there's nothing I can really say to your claim that you woudn't be surprised if tomorrow, Transportation Safety Administration officers started shooting tea party members and other opponents of the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Except to ask you once again,
1. what did your congressman tell you about the ammunition purchases, you said you were investigating.
2. what did the ammunition makers tell you about these purchases after you protested?
The official story in the second tower was everything is under control, go back to work we are taking care of everything.
As a student of modern history I know Obama wasn't "voted" in either. They stole the elction just as the Democrats have stolen every significant election that they possible could have for the last 80 years or so.
Indeed. "useful idiots" as in those who helped Lenin and the communist cause because they believed his rhetoric or held similar views. Look at the U.S. today; openly communist congressmen and presidential appointees and look at the MSM and the left, a bunch of useful idiots who know or should know this but accept it anyway.
The military is SUPPOSED to stockpile a huge arsenal, I would be worried if they didn't. Social Security and HHS is not supposed to and I worry because they have.
No, I won't take your bait. My comments stand for themselves, you can take them or leave them. I think you would prefer to to "win" over being correct.
there was no "official story". no one knew what was happening at 9.00am on 9/11.
and that's your problem. you see "official stories" everywhere, and with the benefit of hindsight, everywhere a conspiracy. but every demoncraptic president in office because of a stolen election? really? that's laughable.
you worry about popguns in the hands of semi-competent TSA agents but not machine guns in the hands of the army? if when they come for you, it will be Sgt Slaughter and the 5th Space Marines, not deputy dawg of the TSA.
this conversation has bottomed out.
we can resume when and if you ever contact your congressman or the ammo mfrs for the "official story", you're investigating, right? investigate why infowars altered the redacted documents to make them totally unreadable.
protip: readable contract details aren't as useful to the conspiracy market as unreadable, and therefore sinister, redactions.
I don't believe you ever will though. conspiracies based on argument are easier to sustain than a fact based discussion.
Clearly you are wrong and clearly the workers in the second tower were indeed told everything was OK, stay at your desks we are taking care of it. Just as clearly they were wrong. So what is it you think you just proved??? I was correct and you were wrong but you still feel you were correct.
The army is supposed to have machine guns! Duh! I want them to have machine guns and tanks and bombs. don't you??
The "call your congressman" ploy is a red herring you are draging through the discussion to win at any cost. Call your own congressman. Our politicians respond to special interests, money and a very large number of angry voters. They do not respond in any useful way to the mom and pop voters. I have no intention to responding to the red herring bait.
Conspiracy! Maybe. Is everything that gets reported a conspiracy? I am responding to a news story reported by MANY outlets not info wars. Are you saying this never happened? This is all a hoax or conspiracy theory? If so I am overjoyed. But I have to wonder if the story is true then why are you so intent on disagreeing with it?
I forgot to add ...
I assume you've contacted your congressman about this, what did he or she say?
and, also assuming, you contacted the companies selling ammo to the fed to register your concerns. what was their response?
1.6B .40 S&W JHP they say. For 100k officers, that's 16k rounds/officer. If an officer uses 100 rds/month on proficiency training, that's 13.3 years. Math is hard.
Apparently most of this was purchased under contract to a mystery company called "Evian", which magically appeared, got the contract, delivered the goods, and disappeared without a trace.
There's a smelly fish here somewhere.
much innuendo, but what are you saying?
it looks like the usual gummint-ate-my-homework panic sites did about ten minutes of internet research (copied by the other panic blahgsites) and discovered the company is a nevada corporation, with the usual limited public information that nevada is well known for.
its a small business-qualified and registered as a government bidder. the contract is a supply contract -- the govt issues purchase orders and they fill them, shipment directly from the manufacturers because, you know, this is basically how this is done in the adult world.
whoever they are, they're brokers or middlemen. they negotiated the purchase of ammunition from probably several suppliers at a bulk discount. and the didn't "disappear", they're listed as an active corporation. that a corporation has a storefront address and conducts its business elsewhere is so ordinary, I wonder how on earth anyone is astounded by it.
if you have anything substantial or know of irregularities about this under the bidding regs (other than the usual fear factor), I'd be interested in hearing facts.
Re: Men should dress like men
nevermind that small stuff, its all in the way you wear your hat.