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Wednesday, September 14. 2011On Darwin
I also noted that I was so inspired by coming across an actual Darwinian Denier here in the advent of the Second Millennium that I immediately rewatched my one Darwin disc, then ordered a bunch more from Netflix. Thanks, Rick, for the reminder of what a truly great man Charles Darwin was. Since I'm currently real 'up' on Darwin, I thought I'd compile a handful of different observations and such on the subject, including my own encounter with a small evolutionary experiment taking place right before my very eyes. To get us in the mood, let's start off with the one big tool that Darwin didn't have. For those who don't believe in evolution, the one big argument is that "the fossil record is incomplete." And they're right, there are huge gaps in the fossil record, and understandably so. Bones are just organic material, after all, and it's astonishing that any bones have survived the onslaught of countless millennia. For every thousand cave men who died, one had to clutch his chest from a heart attack or enemy spear, go "Arrggh!", stumble three steps and fall into a great big tar or mud pit. For every thousand dinosaurs that died, one had to collapse by the river bank — and at precisely that moment a huge water surge created a massive mud flow that covered the entire body with 10 feet of mud before it could be eaten and the bones scattered — just as the rainy season ended so the fresh mud wouldn't be washed away by the next big rain — then the next rainy season would have to be lighter than normal so the rains wouldn't wash away the mud down to the rotting carcass. The circumstances that would allow organic material like bones — much less skeletons — to sit around long enough to be fossilized by the millennia would had to have been few and far between. So it's certainly understandable that the fossil record is incomplete. Of course, fossils aren't the only record.
That's from the great Carl Sagan series, Cosmos. You might have noted he said the dinosaurs "all mysteriously disappeared". Cosmos was filmed in the early 80's, before the iridium layer left by the asteroid was discovered. To Sagan's credit, he theorizes elsewhere on the dinosaurs' mysterious and rapid extinction and put a possible asteroid event at the top of the list.
During the third debate, Jon Huntsman lit into Rick Perry over Perry's stance against man-made global warming and evolution. He basically said, "Since 98% of the world's scientists are in agreement on these two issues, what kind of blithering idiot would think otherwise?" Mr. Huntsman is, as I understand it, a Mormon. And Mormonism isn't like conventional Christianity, where you can be a 'Christian in spirit' but not actually be 'formally' involved, like with a church and pastor. You're basically either a true Mormon or you aren't. Yet this self-proclaimed Mormon apparently believes in evolution. My question is, don't Mormons believe God created the earth and heavens?
Darwin spent his entire life begrudging one conclusion after another, because every one went against everything he'd been taught. I suppose the Deniers view him as some kind of wild-eyed zealot intent upon destroying mankind, but such was far from the truth. If there was ever a 'reluctant hero', it was Darwin. Factoid: It wasn't the finches on the Galápagos that sparked the whole thing. That's the general story you'll read, but the finches, even with their wildly-varying beaks, really didn't interest him very much. Of the ones he brought back to England, he didn't even label which island they came from. It was the mockingbirds that so intrigued him. Like the finches, they, too, have beaks that vary from island to island, each designed for the exact type of grub or bug or worm or slug they feed on. If there's an irony to the whole story, it's that pigeon breeders in Darwin's England were doing exactly what people were saying couldn't be done by anyone but God; creating a new sub-species. But through selective breeding, they ended up with pigeons displaying either massive tail fluffs, foot feathers, huge puffy breasts or large ear tufts. Whether it's two different pigeons, one with huge feet feathers and one with huge ear tufts, or two different mockingbirds, one with a curved beak to root out a certain type of ground bug and the other with a straight beak to pry out a certain type of tree bark critter, the essence is the same. The logical conclusion Darwin came to was, "If man can do it, then nature should certainly be able to." For starters, man is usually in a hurry, whereas nature has all the time in the world.
When you ask why, the answer "Because God decreed it so" just isn't very fulfilling. It also didn't make for a very satisfactory answer when Darwin found sea shells high in the Andes. God may have a master plan, but it's at least supposed to make some kind of sense. The Beagle's voyage (1831 - 1836):
And I, myself, have witnessed what I believe to be evolution in action. I spent years raising pet rats and would always throw one on my shoulder when I went downstairs from the computer room to grab a bite to eat or whatever. As you'd expect, they'd widen their stance a bit and dig in for the ride. After a few years of this, I obviously had a good idea of what a rat feels like being carried around on one's shoulder. Then I got Malinda. The first time I put her on my shoulder, I immediately noticed something felt different, so I went over to a mirror to check it out. Her rear legs were widely splayed. I called them 'pontoon legs'. I figured evolution was making a small experiment. Suddenly, the rock ledge the rats are cowering on shifts violently during the thunderous storm or earthquake. All of the rats slide off and perish except for the one with the pontoon legs who just barely manages to hang on. Eight feet away, the same thing has happened, and elsewhere around the globe. The surviving pontoon-leg rats pass along the genetic trait and the experiment is repeated again and again and again. And, one million years from today, all rats have pontoon legs. The experiment worked. Evolution never sleeps.
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It should be noted that the Catholic Church both (1) teaches that God created the heavens and the Earth and (2) that it accepts evolution as true. Some in the hierachy do grumble about Natural Selection, but the Church is silent on that issue. The bottom line is, however the sperm and egg got there [and both are fully alive] God creates a unique human soul at the moment of fertilization.
Religious opposition to evolution comes from those who insist on reading the Biblical literally. Other traditions, like the Catholics and Jews, take the Bible allegorically and metaphorically, although inspired allegory and metaphor. Today, the real support for evolution is the 16/18S RNA Tree of Life and the common biochemistry of all life. The fossil record is incomplete and has gaps because of the way geology works. It will always have gaps. It supplements and supports the RNA tree. words that dont make sense when descibing evil ution because if by chance,thenits not created or designed. and how would i know to need any senses to see i would need to know wats there to see ,to hear, to fear as i (design) by chance. figurethat i would need to replace myself because i dont no the future i would not no that i would die because wat would that be? if u get my point? concience love hate jelasy , responsability for u acctions 3 thousand years ago God said that he hangs the earth upon nothing and requires all to stand up and be a man for he requires an answer
Yeah, the one thing Darwin lacked...evidence.
Evolution is one of the most ill-contrived theories ever to put out to the world. Decades (or centuries depending on what models you want to accept) later there is still a dearth of evidence that supports evolutionary theories. Instead there are repeated cases of outright fraud. There is constant vaguery, and a lack of consistency in terminology. You wonder why AGW was so readily accepted? Because people were taught evolution was true, despite its logical contradictions and lack of empirical support. AGW just came along side. DrTorch -
"Yeah, the one thing Darwin lacked...evidence." You, er, did read the stuff below the fold, right? What about the video and DNA evidence? "one of the most ill-contrived theories" Oh, you mean because it's called the "theory of evolution", that it doesn't exist? You mean like the "theory of gravity"? "there is still a dearth of evidence" Right. As I said, there are huge gaps in the fossil record. If it was suddenly complete, would that change your convictions? "are repeated cases of outright fraud" 'Repeated'? Okay, there was Piltdown Man. That was a lulu. Any others? "You wonder why AGW was so readily accepted? Because people were taught evolution was true" In other words, if everyone on the planet believed in God, then AGW wouldn't exist because everyone would simply believe a warming earth was all part of God's master plan? Phrased like that, I'm afraid I'd have to concede the point. Piltdown man. Yes. Were there others? Absolutely.
The forged drawings associated w/ embryonic recapitulation. More recently the whole Pepper Moth fraud. I'm sure that's not all. What about the DNA "evidence"? Sorry, at best that just one interpretation of an experiment. In general it's ignoring the error bars associated w/ the evidence and forcing it to fit a pre-conceived theory. At worst it's fudging the data to get it to match the theory. And it's not just that there is a lack of evidence in the fossil record, it's that the evidence that is there contradicts the mainline theories of evolution. And please, save your straw man argument over the term "theory" for someone else. I didn't say anything of the sort. There are all sorts of flaws w/ the various theories, that's why the geneticists have such rivalries w/ the natural seletion people. You can accept the veneer that these are just minor distinctions within one broadly accepted theory, but that's just another bit of fraud. Finally, why waste so much time on this? Evolution provides nothing to science and nothing to technology. DrT -
"The forged drawings associated w/ embryonic recapitulation." "More recently the whole Pepper Moth fraud." ?? Well, if I've never heard of them, then they didn't have a very good publicity agent. The Pepper Moth rings half a bell, but only Piltdown Man had legs. (as it were) "At worst it's fudging the data to get it to match the theory." Yes, but there was data there to be fudged. In other words, all you're saying is that they didn't get it right this time -- but might the next. Either way, you admit the data is there, yes? "And please, save your straw man argument over the term "theory" for someone else. I didn't say anything of the sort." Hey, if you're going to use the word "theory" with every other breath, then I get to bring up gravity. You used it four times in this one comment. "Finally, why waste so much time on this? Evolution provides nothing to science and nothing to technology." Well, er, neither does music or art. Sadly, one of the cases that Dr Torch refers to is a genuine case of fraud, and even most evolution-defenders admit it. Roundabout a century ago, a chap named Ernst Haeckel did some drawings that allegedly showed the similarity at certain stages of development between various vertebrate embryos. In a remarkably bad decision, he chose to 'enhance' the similarities in a way that supported his hypothesis of 'ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny' -- or in nonjargon, an embryo's development follows the same path its ancestry took from primitive form to advanced (modern) form.
Haeckel's 'enhanced' drawings are at least dishonest; whether or not they rise to the level of 'fraud' is a question of semantics. In any case, his literal hypothesis was wrong. However, in recent years an entire field of evolutionary science has grown up around a similar idea, "evolutionary development" or "evo-devo". Evo-devo says that an organism's development sometimes resembles its evolutionary history, and by careful study we can often learn a lot about the organism's evolution by observing its development. Dr Torch's other case, the Peppered Moth controversy, is a case of creationist fraud. Simply put, they don't tell the truth about the peppered moth or the scientists who study it.
#4.1.1.1.1
wolfwalker
on
2011-09-14 19:51
(Reply)
I am suddenly reminded of "The HitchHiker's Guide To the Galaxy" series of books. There was a planet where they built other planets. They had a whole crew in charge of burying fossils. Hey, somebody's gotta do it. Another guy had gotten an award for the fjords of Norway when they built Earth, so the next planet they built was going have nothing but fjords.
Why are guys named Tom always up to speed on science fiction? It's true - I kid you not. :>)
Out of curiosity, are you an engineer or similar - like physicist or chemist or such like? Because that's another thing about guys named Tom - they are almost always engineers or physicists or chemists. Well, except for Tom Friedman but he's an exception that proves the rule. Or, Tom Jones - he sure had a projectile attraction to ladies undergarments.... or, so I'm told...
"Why are guys named Tom always up to speed on science fiction?"
Sometimes to their ultimate doom. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-g_Y0UCxmg Now you did it - I was going have a peaceful morning after spending some time on the lake, but no...you gotta bring up evolution.
God works in mysterious ways - well, at least in ways we might not understand or comprehend. In my view, God doesn't have a lot of time to work with individuals - what with all the stuff going on with physics and chemistry and what not - that alone - well, look at it this way, running chaos at the quantum foam level has to be a fairly big job wouldn't you think? The way I look at it is that God works in very subtle and minor ways to achieve what he wants - as in a using light touch like a pick pocket, safe cracker or bomb disposal expert. After all, when you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all. Think about it. So yeah - evolution and religion, at least in my universe, can not only co-exist, but is actually necessary because the chances of what are essentially monkeys developing into homo sapiens are astronomical. Then again, there are billions and billions and bi...ok, a LOT of star systems out there so unless you believe in total exclusivity to just our solar system, we might not be the only ones like us in the universe. RE: Dinosaur extinction. Ah yes - the good old asteroid theory. Did you know that paleontologists are now working an a very sound alternate theory - mainly that disease may have done in the dinosaurs due to two factors - the rise of many and varied biting insects and the disappearance of the vegetation that herbivore dinos ate who where subsequently eaten by carnivorousness dinos. The evidence for the planetary vegetation dying off is found in India where there were cataclysmic vulcanism (a lot of volcanoes) which just happened to occur at the same time at the KT Barrier. The "asteroid" was just the icing on the cake of the dinosaurs demise. Tom - Regarding the latest 'alternate theory', I read the article when it came out a while back, but, rather than the asteroid being the "icing on the cake", I'd phrase it that "the table was set" for a cataclysmic event, which the asteroid conveniently provided.
The disease hypothesis is old, old, old. I remember a talk by Bakker promoting it way back in the eighties. I commented to a friend that, yes, Bakker argued his case well, but he was going to be shown to be wrong. Why did I say that? The hypothesis had a speculative Rube Goldberg feel to it and not much evidence. And it still looks like that. Later research has shown just how quick and widespread the extinction was and it's impact even on marine animals. So I think the disease idea is still pretty much out on the edge and unlikely to get any more convincing in the future.
I phrased that badly - yes, the idea of disease has been around for a while, but the evidence wasn't solid. Lately, there have been some very interesting core samples along with spores, amber insect captures, some curiosities along the K-T Barrier there were unexplained until now - the whole India vulcanism deal - makes sense to me. Sometimes, Occum's Razor is very dull. :>)
The Deccan traps theory is also one of the old ones. Mind, it's hard to be certain about anything that happened 60 MY ago ;) I wonder sometimes why dinosaurs didn't re-evolve. I think a branch of the crocodiles did evolve to be more land hunters, and there was the occasional big bird, but only mammals seem to have been very successful in the big animal department during the Cenozoic period.
"I wonder sometimes why dinosaurs didn't re-evolve."
That's an interesting question. Or, to put it another way, why did we evolve instead of others? I suppose the spitball guess is because we developed opposable thumbs and stereoscopic vision. Once you can make spears and throw them accurately, that dinosaur-to-be just becomes another dinner. Because we had a taste for eggs, and I bet Dino eggs were delicious.
#6.2.1.1.1.1
NJSoldier
on
2011-09-14 13:39
(Reply)
I've long assumed tale regarding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was the Biblical account of evolution.
Before fruit: monkey brains that aren't sufficiently developed to contemplate good and evil. After fruit: monkey (human) brains that are much more sophisticated, and can thus be held responsible for their actions. If God can create a universe in 6 days, mammalian evolution in an afternoon seems about right. I think that the lack of "testability", not evidence, is the most difficult thing for me regarding the theory of evolution. I am not an evolution-denier, but we can never see the process at work (the time scales and environment changes are too large). And no, breeding programs do not prove evolution since they select for information already available in the DNA and do not create information.
Therefore, the evidence for evolution will always be a series of "just so" stories. Really, there is a lot of similarity between die-hard evolutionists and conspirisy theorists. For any given set of facts, a story can be created to connect them together. I don't know how God created us - instantaneously or over billions of years - but the actual mechanism is still unknown in my opinion. Bradley -
"breeding programs do not prove evolution" Correct, but they prove that a species can be manipulated, which is a key point. And, as I said in the post, if man can do it, then why not nature? "die-hard evolutionists" I'm not sure what a "die-hard" evolutionist is. Either you believe that God created the whole shebang or it came about naturally. I'm not sure what other choices there are. Magic? Doc,
You seem to draw too hard a line between evolution and creationism IMNHO. I am pretty hard line in the evolution camp, but I can see room for grey area in between. One of the reasons the two sides talk past each other so much is that they are really two different questions in most people's minds. The 'creationists' or ID people tend to be far more concerned with the origin of life (which evolution does not really address) and evolutionists are much more focucsed on the mechanism of change, but does not really touch on origin of life. After all if you believe that God created all of the creatures on the Earth, I don't think there was a specific mechanism that God used, and there is no reason the specific tool God used could not be evolution. One could consistently believe that God wrote the rules of the universe (including evolution) that caused the creation of all of the plants and animals. Certainly there are some Biblical literalists that would object to that, but there is a middle ground. If I am not mistaken that approximates the Catholic position...God created the universe and all the creatures in it. No comment as to whether he used evolution or clay. You seem to be pretty much God or evolution. I am not saying the more vocal creationists disagree, but there is room for someone to say 'both' and be internally consistent. DM - Actually, I have a post on my own site which I think I'll port over where I draw a happy medium between evolution and creationism. Should make for some interesting comments.
Doc -
"And, as I said in the post (regarding breeding programs do not prove evolution), if man can do it, then why not nature?" Again, showing that you can suppress certain genetic outcomes does not mean you are creating new ones. Most "mutts" are healtier than highly breed dogs because they have more of the genetic variability. Also, breeding is specifically intelligence driven. "I'm not sure what a "die-hard" evolutionist is." Fair enough. It used to be that an evolutionist believed in "survival of the fittest", but now there are a lot of flavors of evolution. So many that now it has basically come to mean ANY totally natural process which creates continously more complicated organisms. I guess I would clarify the "die-hard" to be anyone that thinks another way is a dufus. (see below) "Either you believe that God created the whole shebang or it came about naturally. I'm not sure what other choices there are. Magic?" If God exists (and I believe He does) then he is one complicated guy. Everything we know about nature has shown us there is always another level of complexity behind every set of laws and observations. Why should historical biology be any different? I just think a little humility on the subject is appropriate since, as I said in the beginning, the therory of evolution will always be untestable (well, until there are time machines!). Bradley - Well, not to pick the nit, but the pigeon breeders weren't 'supressing' anything; that is, the pigeons didn't orignally have massive feet fluffs, ear tufts, etc. I guess you could say they 'supressed' things in the sense that they supressed the ones who didn't show enhancements.
As to 'showing some humilty', that's a fair point, and as I mentioned to DM up above, I'll port a post over one of these days from my own site that should satisfy the criteria. It combines evolution and God in the tidiest of ways. "Correct, but they [breeding programs] prove that a species can be manipulated, which is a key point. And, as I said in the post, if man can do it, then why not nature?"
Is the following a more general statement of your particular one? Because thinking beings can deliberately manipulate things towards a certain positive outcome, therefore an unthinking process can do the same by accident. I would say that's one huge whopping non sequitur, so I must not be understanding what you mean. I haven't listened to or read Perry's stance on evolution, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a political element to it, i.e. "There are a lot of folks on the right who don't, and I want them in my camp when it comes time to pick the nominee." Regardless, it doesn't matter. Perry could be the wild-eyed religious fanatic that the Left would like to paint him as, and he still couldn't turn our country into a theocracy.
Huntsman going after Perry (or anyone else) on evolution and AGW is just an attempt to distract independents from the important issues: unemployment, the Federal takeover of health care coverage, the increase in Federal spending under the current administration, the increase in Federal anti-business regulation under the current administration, and the current administration's ongoing efforts to make energy (i.e. gasoline and electricity) more expensive. These are the important issues. These are the issues that would dominate any presidential debate, if the debate organizers and moderaters weren't pulling for the President. It's the economy, stupid. If the debate is about the economy, we'll have a new president in Jan 2013, and everyone knows it. I'm sure if any Mormons here want to opine and correct me, they can feel free, but I'll comment on the Jon Huntsman "Mormon question" that Dr. Mercury put forth.
I've worked with several. When I was in college, I worked with 2 at a camp. I've had several interns who are LDS (their preferred nickname) here in NYC. All of them drank and smoked - which shocked me. I've asked them a variety of questions, and what it comes down to is that Mormons are just like you and me. There are ranges of belief. After all, the polygamists we hear about are usually Mormon, too. They consider themselves the "conservatives", even though the elders of the church don't recognize them. The interns I got all treated their internships in pretty much the same manner that the Amish treat their "Rumspringa". It's a chance to go out and be a normal person and see if you really enjoy it. It's not sanctioned by the community, but a large number of the younger kids do it. Beyond that, once they get involved with the church again (if they do), evolution is open to opinion. The church will make statements on it, but these are considered opinions, not religious dogma. As a Catholic, I view many of the Vatican's statements in the same vein. I can appreciate the value of their view, but I see a great deal of inconsistency, which allows me to make my own decisions on what I'm willing to accept and still consider myself "Catholic" (regardless of what the Vatican says I am). While the Catholic Church has a much stricter version of how its adherents must think in order to be a recognized member of the church, LDS is different. A very good friend of mine is a former priest, still a minister, who teaches biology at a local college. He and I have had some great discussions which basically have come to a single conclusion: Believing in God, or believing in the Bible, is not inconsistent with having a background in science and recognizing the difference between faith and reason. Faith requires reason in order to be effective. Therefore, Faith has to have the ability to engage Reason when it comes to life. The evidence for evolution is undeniable. The Bible is well known as an allegorical vehicle. Why use the Bible as a science book, when it isn't designed to be that way? If you believe that God is the "Prime Mover", then God "created" Evolution. What's so wrong with that? In fact, it's incredibly elegant. It's not precisely the way I look at it, but close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades. Darwin recognized the problems his theory would cause because, after all, he did study divinity and theology was one of his primary areas of focus. But he was also a great example of a man who knew how to use Reason. By the way, Tom(s) - if you remember the entire "Hitchiker's Guide" series, humans were actually the descendents of a crazy bunch of lunatics who crash-landed on earth, eventually killing off the slowly evolving ape-like forms that were originally placed there. Rick - Thanks for the rundown. I admit, it was a fairly simplistic question, but it came to me during the debate when Huntsman was spouting his stuff. It just seemed odd, given how uptight and constrictive Mormonism is. It seems like a likely breeding ground for creationism to flourish, so I thought I'd ask.
Related. As "one of the Mormons here" (and, as far as I know, the only one) I'll chime in.
To answer the Doctor's question: yes, Mormons believe that God created the heavens and the earth. At least that is official church doctrine. The doctrine is entirely silent on what methods God used to accomplish that task. One thing to understand about the Mormon church (officially the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, hence the acronym "LDS") is that we believe that God has restored Christ's original church to the earth which is led today by a living prophet. When the prophet speaks in his official capacity, it is with the authority of God as binding as ancient scripture. So in this sense the "fundamentalist Mormons" who practice polygamy are not part of the church because they are violating the teachings of the church as taught by one such prophet. That being said, there are many church members who hold a belief similar to that of the typical "Christian fundamentalist" that "evolution is not true." When I was a college student back in the 80s at Brigham Young University (sponsored by the Mormon church) I recall some student near me complaining about having to learn about evolution because "it isn't true." However, evolution is taught in the mandatory biology class and the professor, in my opinion, did an excellent job of demonstrating why the theory is consistent (or at least not contradictory) with church doctrine. My personal opinion: God created the "heavens and the earth" but He hasn't told us how He did so. He did, however, give us an intellect which we should use to figure stuff out -- not all Truth comes through scripture! I get a little annoyed at the false presentation of "religion" and "science" as being opposites in a battle over truth. Regarding Rick's experiences with Mormon interns -- I too was at one time an intern in NYC (which is how I ended up living in the area) although I did not smoke or drink at the time. Everyone makes their own choices and, as you observed, many choose to violate commandments. I suppose we all do at some point since none of us are perfect. Finally, on nit regarding the statement "And Mormonism isn't like Christianity . . . " -- Mormons consider ourselves to be "Christian" in that we believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and atoned for our sins. It is true that many Christian denominations don't consider us to be Christian, but as Inigo Montoya said "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Superb comment, Randall, great info.
As for your statement on my usage of the word "Christianity", you're entirely correct, but I just couldn't think of a word that meant "everbody but Mormons and Amish". I've put a "conventional" in front of it which gets the point across, and thanks for pointing it out. Dude- nicely put. We're on the same page here - that's unusual. Well, except for the Ron Paul thing that is. :>)\
With respect to "Hitchhiker's" - indeed and the strange thing about it is that it makes some sense. :>) If you are of a mind, you might want to look up "The Science of Discworld" which is based on Terry Pratchett's series of novels (all 29 of them). It's a trilogy and well worth the time to read. The science is great, but the accompanying stories involving the Wizards of Unseen University with people like Darwin are not only hysterically funny but excellent commentary on life, the universe and everything if I can commit the heresy of mixing two great writers together. Just remember, its 42. :>) We're on the same page many times. I won't comment if I don't think there's something worth adding or if I just agree.
And the Ron Paul "thing" has many facets, as far as I'm concerned, so I don't view it as a drawback, though there is some effrontery in the manner his supporters are treated here. I rarely make fun of followers of a political figure - that's just opinion and the person would have to be so far out in left field that it requires making them feel that way. I'll make fun of the political figure, particularly if they deserve it, but rarely the follower. I don't see that here, with Paul. He's got many fine qualities (as I mentioned, he's one of the few candidates who has mentioned Bastiat or Von Mises, a quality I can admire). The fact that he has a number of loons following him? Each candidate has that to a degree. I'm concerned about one thing, primarily, in this election - the free market. But as I've said before, I'm not married to any candidate. I'll check those books out. My wife is in a book club that is reading "The Hunger Games" (adolescent sci-fi, I haven't read) and she is amazed at how well sci-fi makes social commentary. It's very hard to bite my lip and not say "Well, Duh." (remember, adolescent sci-fi) So long, and thanks for all the fish. There is an over abundance of fossil/geological evidence....but not for evolution!
When you cherry pick fossils for evolution you can conveniently pass over the gold chains and human remains inside coal seams. How about the fossilized pine trees passing through "millions of years" of rock strata? How about the multiple million+ fish fossil beds? Geological overthrusts/underthrusts? All that points to a world-wide flood that wiped out most life on earth, not a gradual layering over time. We would actually see much less fossil record! The next question is...Which theory of evolution can you prove? There are punctuated-equilibrium evolutionists (like Gould) that disprove neo-Darwinists and then those shoot down the mutationists and then those discredit other evolutionists....and the cycle goes on. People who believe in I.D. or in Creationism can stand by watching the evolution of evolutionary thought! May the best theory survive! [sarcasm] The only evolution I can see is micro-evolution (a species changing), but there isn't any proof of macro-evolution (one species changing to another species). There's no proof or clue about bio-genesis, or the origin of the universe or any of the other areas that the spectrum of "evolutionary" thought covers. It's actually getting more difficult when we discovered DNA. Where did the information in DNA come from? We can physically explain how the information is attached (like chalk letters on a chalkboard), but we can't explain the origin of the physically independent INFORMATION (the shape of the chalk letters). Using Darwin's methodology that he created...What is the activity today that most likely causes these things that we see in the past? As information is observed today to be caused by a creator or designer, anything that we can see in the past that that has information embedded digitally into it must be caused by a creator. The digital DNA information we can observe has a self-replicating, self-correcting (3 of 7?) code. It has all the design principles from the computer programers reference guide on good design. No such thing as junk DNA. Evolutionary throught has one goal. To see if we can get away from our Creators rule and rules in our lives. I believe that our Creator gave us liberties (some as defined in the Constitution) so that we are not little automatons. There is also a plan that you need to ask the Creator about. I hate man-made religion, but I love being able to talk with my Creator about that plan for my life. Mike -
"May the best theory survive!" That's my favorite line of the day. :) I don't know anything about the various schools of evolutionary thought, but I'm pretty sure God didn't do it, so it's the only other choice I see. If you can provide a third choice, I'm all ears. For anyone who opposes evolution, there will never be "evidence" to change their mind. From my point of view, I've often thought Archeopteryx was a good enough example of the transition from dinosaur to bird to suit me. And ever since that was discovered, many other "birds" have been discovered to continue to support the macro transition theory behind this.
And regardless if you support the "punctuated equilibrium" (which has quite a bit to give it credit) or any other view of evolution, it doesn't matter - it's still evolution. It's like me saying I believe in "a constrained free market" but I don't like that you want the government to regulate margin percentages because I have a better way of doing it that I believe in. Within the framework of what I believe, either solution will work, I just happen to like mine better. Evolution does not have as its only goal to repudiate a Creator. In fact, I would argue that the Creator was intelligent enough to see the value in a laboratory environment which allowed evolution so that things could constantly change and adapt - it's a brilliant solution! Could YOU have come up with it? Doubtful. In fact, in studying evolution, you often have to ask what the genius behind the very structure is - a question you can answer by saying "well, that's just Nature". But if that's your response (and I've heard atheists say it), then you may as well just say "well, that's how God intended it". It takes quite a bit of stretching of the truth to ignore the evidence. But it doesn't take much to revisit our philosophical backgrounds to determine how it fits in with our view of Faith or Belief. If you want to get really technical about it - how is religion so "Right" when religion itself has evolved dramatically? Religion was, at first, a rudimentary attempt to explain natural events in a fashion a less well informed population could understand. As Reason developed, how religion was utilized continued to change. Religious thought evolved with knowledge. Remember, the Church fought Galileo - to say that religion wasn't trying to explain science is wrong....and its record in explaining science is pretty poor (Copernicus, Galileo, Jenner). Paganism to polytheism to monotheism to Judaism to Catholicism to the Reformation. Hell, even Catholics like me are barely similar to the Catholics running around in the 1400's! I had a kid in my 7th grade class (Catholic school) who replied to a nun's question of "Do you really want to believe that your ancestor was an ape?" with this: "What do I care? That ape was millions of years ago! If you want evidence that we're descended from apes, just look at George!" Damn if she wasn't right. George really did resemble a chimpanzee. He was never able to live that down. He still can't. He still looks like a chimp. If you don't believe in macro evolution, then how do you explain that man's DNA is so similar to that of Chimpanzees? Well, not exactly. Instead of Rattus norvegicus, she'd be Rattus pontoonus. The discusions concerning rheas, pigeons, finches, mockingbirds and rats all have to do with sub-species, not species.
Can it still breed viable offspring with a Rattus norvegicus? If so, it is a different breed of Rat - not a different species.
I could breed my Mastiff to a Chihuahua or a Grey Wolf and get offspring capable of reproducing. Same species, different breeds - not Macro Evolution. I am not a "Darwin Denier" and certainly believe in the survival of the fittest - in nature, society, and in business.
The Theory of the Evolution as it currently stands is a very incomplete theory. We have no idea what goes on as a high-order species evolves into another. A human born without 46 Chromosomes - too few or too many - is always severely impaired and would never survive in a primitive situation. Yet our primate relatives have anywhere between 16 and 60 chromosomes . Something happened besides separated populations being selected for different traits. What that something is remains to be explained. Hit submit too soon.
So I agree with Perry when he says: Evolution is 'theory' with 'gaps'. http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/08/rick-perry-evolution-presidential-race-/1 NJS -
"Evolution is 'theory' with 'gaps'." Yes, but there aren't any gray areas in politics. You're either for something or you're against it. No waffling allowed, like the above. That's how the media plays the game, so that's how the game must be played. The only other (accepted) answer is "I'm still studying the issue." Gay rights? Evolution? Global warming? The Canadian pipeline? I'm still studying the issue. On the controversial subjects, you stray that answer at your peril, as Perry is finding out. His numbers with independents and Democrats have fallen sharply in the last two weeks, mainly because the Dems are using it for all it's worth, and will continue to do so. Yes. Stay tuned for a decade of "Rick Perry is dumb" jokes by comedians who have never put 5 seconds of thought into anything scientific.
Quantum Physics is a "theory" with "gaps". But I don't see any of the politicians fighting it.
It's based on a statistical framework that says the odds of an outcome are X, and that's what keeps our world happening the way it happens. The odds are in our favor that it will keep happening that way. Meanwhile, Einstein hated Quantum Physics saying "God doesn't play dice with the universe." To which I believe Richard Feynman responded "God does play dice with the universe, but the dice are loaded." I may have that second quote wrong, but it's directionally accurate. You can point out gaps in any theory until it reaches its final solution (assuming it reaches one). "The Earth is the Center of the Universe" was not easily overcome. That's one of the main reasons I am not a supporter of AGW. Too many gaps. Way too many. Too many assumptions and models used to "fill in the gaps". Since I do modeling for a living, I can assure you that I can model just about any outcome you want if you give me only certain inputs. Evolution appears to me to be obviously true in the broad strokes.
Man-made Global Warming (AGW) appears to be to obviously a intentional fraud. Whether Perry "believes" in evolution will have no effect on whether our economy, our political system, or the future of America. Perry not "believing" in AGW may prevent the destruction of our economy and the conversion of the US into a totalitarian state. Evolution is like most academic issues, irrelevant to everyday life. Doesn't mean it is not important if you are working in biology or other life science but it has no effect on how one runs a government. It is kind of like whether you believe in a personal God. AGW is a political issue because the only way to "prevent" the horrible consequences made up by the AGW proponents is to have the government take over what's left of the economy after it is destroyed by the green socialists. I don't care one bit about Perry's (or any other candidates) religion (not because religion isn't important but because it does not affect his ability to manage the government). I care deeply about his unwillingness to destroy the US to line his pockets (like Gore) or to create a socialist "utopia" (really dystopia) like Obama. The obsession of people (who love to tout their own intelligence) about how "dumb" certain politicians are because they believe in God or don't believe in evolution is childish and stupid. The best presidents of this nation have mostly been considered stupid. Perhaps because they possessed "common sense" and were not focused on being accepted by elitist bozos with more self regard then intelligence. Stupid, stupid, stupid post. If you were 1/10 as smart as you think you could see past your own childish "intelligence tests" to what matters in a leader. PS. I have multiple science degrees but I don't think that makes me smarter than my neighbor. I just know more about how the universe works. Sometimes that matters but most of the time it doesn't matter at all GaryP -
Okay, how about this: "...you could see past your own childish "intelligence tests" to what matters in a leader." What if the tests show he makes bad strategy decisions? Is that what you want in a leader? I'm not sure how a lack belief in evolution can be construed to be a bad decision in a politician.
Do you mean that it is bad decision not to believe in evolution because there is overwhelming scientific evidence that evolution is correct? The is a terrible decision if you want to do research in some areas of science but it is totally irrelevant if you want to run a state, or a country. (Unless you think that the government should control science research and the president has to understand and have "correct" opinions of every aspect of science. Good luck on that.) Do you mean it is a bad decision not to believe in evolution because it is "lower class" and all the best people believe in evolution? In other words, only a member of the "elite" can rule us and to be elite you must believe in evolution? I agree with William Buckley who said it would rather be ruled by people chosen randomly from the Boston phone book than the faculty of Harvard. The elites have ruled us since the 30's. The have (almost) destroyed our nation and will complete that destruction within a few years. They know nothing (pertinent to governing), they think nothing (except thoughts approved by fellow elites), they do nothing (except obstructing people who can do something). Perry may be purposely trying to show that he is not a member of the credentialed idiot class that consider themselves our betters. If you have examples of particular errors made by Perry, inform us about them but Perry's acceptance of a (correct) theory that explains how the giraffe got such a long neck is the last thing I will base my vote on. I wish we could elect someone "stupid" like Reagan, Truman, or Coolidge for a change and maybe our nation will have some small chance to survive. I wish America was doing as "bad" as Texas has during Perry's tenure instead of as "wonderfully" as it has under the brilliant leadership of Obama. I bet Obama believes in evolution. That makes everything OK--except that the country is being destroyed. GaryP -
"I'm not sure how a lack belief in evolution can be construed to be a bad decision in a politician." I was speaking of the whole list of ways Perry is 'dumb' that I put into my preview post for the 3rd debate. Together, like not saying "I'm still studying the issue" when asked about AGW, coming out against gay marriage, using harsh rhetoric like "almost treasonous", and not believing in evolution all add up to "bad strategy" in my book. And there were a bunch more than just those. Although I don't put any stock in polls, here's one that shows how Perry's numbers have slid since he called Social Security a 'Ponzi Scheme'. Saying things that cause your numbers to drop usually isn't considered "good" strategy, no? "Darwin spent his entire life begrudging one conclusion after another, because every one went against everything he'd been taught. "
And also because, at the start at least, he had Alfred Russel Wallace close on his heels. What ultimately gave Darwin the "prize" was his persistence and longevity. Not too shabby for someone who did his work before the important ideas of his contemporary, Gregor Mendel, on genetics were widely known and accepted. "It also didn't make for a very satisfactory answer when Darwin found sea shells high in the Andes."
BTW, it would have blown Darwin's mind had he known that you can find corals in Tibet, from which Tibetans make wonderful jewelry. God is eternal. Think about infinite time. A million years to God would seem like a millionth of a second to him. So, if He creates Man, that it should take millions of years for His creation to emerge is difficult only for a man to understand because of man's finiteness. Creationists are trying to understand God from a wholly human viewpoint and our human viewpoint is only finite.
When the concept of infinity was explored formally in mathematics for the first time in the 19th century, the mathematician who formalized infinity in set theory also went mad. So infinity is a hard thing for our intellects to work with. Creationists, in some sense, are denying God's reality because they are trying to reduce Him and His works to a finite level for their human minds to grasp. There is a real sense in which those people who accept evolution are closer to God than those who do not. Gloria,
If infinity is a concept, are you then saying that God is also a concept? "There is a real sense in which those people who accept evolution are closer to God than those who do not." I like the concept in your statement (above). Food for thought. Doc's posts certainly generate thoughts that make for an enjoyable read. Thanx to all! Cheers. I like the way you stated this, it's very elegant, and I agree. Infinity isn't really a concept, it's a reality. You could only view it as a concept from the standpoint that it's impossible to really grasp, mentally.
I've always sort've compared God to the producer of a movie, setting the stage for, or tone of, production, then letting the rest happen. the mathematician who formalized infinity in set theory also went mad.
George Cantor - did my Masters thesis on his work. He didn't "go mad" - he fell into a period of depression, eventually recovered and became a lecturer in philosophy for a while. Worked on the Francis Bacon theory of the true author of Shakespeare's works. He went back to mathematics, reconciled with some of his worst detractors (his transfinite numbers theory, set theory and the whole concept of an "infinity of infinities") and eventually died in WWI prior to his 70th birthday. It was pretty clear he was bipolar. He was under tremendous pressure from all sides including the Church who viewed his infinity concept a threat to the nature of God as Infinite. Seriously - this was in the late 19th century. The amazing thing is that he actually didn't "crack" as in go completely bug crap crazy. Thanks for the clarification of Cantor's "madness." I do feel, however, that the antagonism over his work on infinity by both mathematicians and others helped push Cantor over the edge.
With regard to concepts, all we humans can have cognitively are concepts of God. But that does not mean God is a concept. All I can know of tree cognitively, for instance, is a concept, but that doesn't mean trees are concepts. Also, we know via means other than cognitive ones. For instance, the philosopher Hans-Georg Gadamer outlines tacit knowledge, also called embodied knowledge. This is knowledge we cannot express cognitively, but which we have embodied in us; we usually demonstrate its existence through our actions. Well, you did it again Doc. You need to do it more often. I mean who would have thought a thread on Darwin would have more posts that a thread on desert? :>)
Tom - Well, you're certainly right about that. When I think of the Maggie's readership, I usually think of them as a "sugar first, philosophy second" crowd, so it's a real poser. Much like when you said above "He didn't go mad." Everyone who read that wondered, "How could he tell the dif?" Another real poser.
Tom -
Now all Doc needs to do is start a discussion of "Homosexuality - Nature or Choice". Then he'll really keep the threads hopping. :) "#19.1.1Bradl;ey on 2011-09-14 15:49 (delete) (Reply)"
Dear Bradl;ey - Can we just call you ";"? We're all friends here. Rick uses the clever nickname "Rick", Feelblemind is just "feebs", and Tom is usually referred to as "You-know-who" in deference to his delicate mental condition. Where were we? Oh, right, my impending "All homosexuals should immediately be put to death" post. I don't see why you'd view that as 'inflammatory'. Would you say the same thing about rabid dogs? Of course not. It's just a matter of priorities and values. If you want to argue we just give them Oregon, instead, I'm open to discussion. That's what the blogs are all about, the contribution of many to reach a better idea. I figure Oregon is a good choice because it'll give them lots of opportunities to make wisecracks about attending 'Organ Straight University' in Corvallis. Of course, the name of their football team, the Beavers, would lose a bit of its luster, but you can't have everything. I'll get right to work on the post. And don't worry, when it comes to getting your share of the credit, I'll make sure everybody knows where the idea came from. "; did it!" Let 'em figure that one out. :) Careful, not everyone gets sarcasm... er, it was mockery, right?
:)
#19.1.1.2.1
Bradley (;)
on
2011-09-14 16:49
(Reply)
not everyone gets sarcasm... er, it was mockery, right?
Nope - Doc doesn't do sarcasm or mockery. He does sarmocasmkery. Which is similar to travashamockery only different.
#19.1.1.2.1.1
Tom Francis
on
2011-09-14 17:58
(Reply)
I think the truely appropriate term is snarky... not that there's anything wrong with that.
#19.1.1.2.1.1.1
Bradley (;)
on
2011-09-14 18:05
(Reply)
Evolution or Creation? I. DON'T. CARE. You cannot conclusively prove to me that the universe existed before I was born, nor can you prove to me that it will continue to exist after I die.
"You cannot conclusively prove to me that the universe existed before I was born"
Ask your mom about her labor pains. :) "nor can you prove to me that it will continue to exist after I die." Well, I'm willing to test it if you are. You go first. :) I think that Darwinism (as currently explained by most scientists) is partially right.
I believe that on the micro level, species do mutate, often quickly and spectacularly. This happens both in response to natural selection (the mocking birds you mentioned) and to human meddling (the pigeons you mentioned). Whether you believe in God or not, species are mutating. The concept of evolution at the macro level, though, I am not sure about. I don't think that humans evolved from monkeys which evolved from other animals, which evoloved from primordial scum in a pond struck by lightning. I am not sure whether God formed Adam and Eve from a lifeless lump of earth into full-blown humans with modern genes or whether God took monkeys and breathed the breath of life (which I visualize as self awareness) into them. And it really doesn't matter to me which of those two events happened. What I do know is that God is my creator and there are a lot of things about us humans that science can't fully explain yet. None of those mysteries proclude me from believing whole-heartedly in God. Good comments, DD, and I'd only point out that no one here is making the claim that it's "God or Darwin -- pick one". It's the Creationists who are peeing in the pond.
Also, just to note, evolutionists don't claim that man came from ape. As the video above notes, we both share a common ancestor. That's what they got wrong in Merry Olde England when they vilified Darwin. Of course, then we fast-forward to the age of genetics and find out we share something like 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, so it's always been something of a muddle. Dear Dr. M:
I enjoy your writing, and have gotten some excellent practical advice out of it as well, so it pains to say so straighforwardly, but on this topic, you are wrong about both religion and science. 1) Religion: Your statement: "If there's an irony to the whole story, it's that pigeon breeders in Darwin's England were doing exactly what people were saying couldn't be done by anyone but God; creating a new sub-species." is erroneous. The Bible doesn't say "only God can create a new subspecies. As it happens, Genesis 30:31-43 explains how Jacob selectively bred speckled sheep that would reproduce earlier in the spring than normal sheep in a perfectly straightforward way.(It is clearer in the originsl Hebrew, however.) 2) Science: We all know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; how much more then that absence of evidence is not evidence of evidence. There is a tremendous amount not just of evidence, but of actual observation of intra-species evolution into various sub-species. No one--certainly not the Bible--dispute it. However, there is no evidence of inter-species evolution. This does not mean that it did not happen, far from it, since there is equally no evidence that it did happen What evidence are we missing? 1)Q: How life began?Evidence: Not a clue. 2)Q: If life began, how did DNA somehow give instructions to form the insanely complicated single-cell organism? Evidence: Nada. 3) Q: How does a single cell suddenly evolve into a multi-celled creature with specialized cells in specialized organs in a functional creature? Evidence: Zippo. 4) Q: How does a functional creature evolve into some other functional creature of a different species? Evidence: Well, see, there's a horse, and then a million years later, there's a bigger horse, and then...oh, forget it. Zilch. 5) On the genetic level, where one malfunctioning gene can cause horrible birth defects, how can a species actually add/subtract entire chromosomes to evolve into superior, better functioning, more complex species? Evidence: Are you kidding me? Inter-species evolution is a wonderful theory with plenty of evidence that make it plausible, but until all five of these criteria are met (and more for all I know), it is not scientific fact. Some theories that have been empirically disproven: 1) Government bureaucrats can direct the growth of a thriving, healthy economy; 2) Want prosperity? 50% tax rates will get you there quickest; 3) etc. Joe -
In regards to the "only God can make it" meme, I was talking about Darwin's England, and being taught the Bible was the literal truth. Jacob's little peccadillo was probably easily dismissed as 'good husbandry'. As for the rest, this is just silly: "but until all five of these criteria are met (and more for all I know), it is not scientific fact." DrTorch didn't like it up above when I brought up "the theory of gravity", but here we are again. They can't even agree on what the friggin' earth's core is made of, but everybody knows it makes gravity. But, by the above logic, it's not a 'scientific fact'. Just a mere 'theory'. Drop a box on your toe sometime and tell me how 'theoretical' it feels. :) But seriously, how would, or could, anyone ever "prove" how life first began? I'd say that's playing with a rigged deck, no? I'd say that just because we haven't seen the answers yet does not mean there aren't answers.
Along the lines of question #3 - how do stem cells work? They really don't know how or why stem cells can 'evolve' into different organs with different functions, but it's clear they can. Just because we don't know HOW it happens doesn't mean it can't happen. In the case of stem cells, it's very clear that something rather remarkable happens. So why can't that be true of other cells? This isn't as big a leap of faith as you'd think, either. As for question 1, you're right, there is no clear and evident answer. But there are plenty of hypothesis. One thing that will prevent any from providing proof is reproducibility. Since we don't know what the chemical makeup of the earth was when the first life form occurred (was nitrogen more prevalent than it is now? less prevalent? was the earth hotter, colder?), we can make plenty of guesses, but never know. I'm willing to say I can accept that where we are in determining the answer to this is about as far as we may be able to come until we discover more bizarre life forms. After all, 50 years ago, who knew there was life around those Black Smokers at the bottom of the ocean? 100 years ago, who would have believed that there were organisms that thrived in anaerobic situations? Who would've thought there were Aerotolerant anearobes or Facultative anaerobes? Precursors to larger life forms? Possibly. Maybe we can't prove it because there is really only one force capable of breathing life into an organism, or bridging the gaps between species. Man hopes to barely mimic what Nature often does effortlessly. I agree with you on those economic theories being disproven. But you keep forgetting that people are often driven by emotion. If I tell you that a healthy economy will have 5% unemployment, but that the 5% unemployed will suffer severely compared to the employed, how would you react? How about if I told you that you could have 10% unemployment, but the 10% would be a little better off than the 5% in the previous scenario? Hell, I can't prove either scenario, but just think about it. Don't you want to help the poor? Robin Hood didn't steal from the rich and give to the poor. He stole from the government to feed the people the government was overtaxing. Draw a horizontal line. Somewhere, anywhere, draw a vertical line intersecting the horizontal line. One side of the line is an animal, the other side is a human. Did two animals produce a human? Did an animal suddenly become human?
As they say in my country, the only thing that separates us from the animals are mindless superstition and pointless ritual.
(I REALLY hope someone, anyone, on this thread recognizes this quote and the character who said it.) Er, Will Rogers?
Okay, I cheated and looked it up. A die-hard fan would get it, I s'pose. I was, though, very close with 'Will Rogers', I'm sure you'll agree. Almost the same continent! Well, I'm a die-hard fan. But I've met others who knew. And I am guessing that others will Google it. It's been my favorite line when I get into philosophical discussions. Hard to refute. Usually because the other person is incredulous or laughing.
And another of the group, after the umpteenth "dice" declaration, exasperatedly replied "Albert, stop telling God what to do!"
Picking of nits - not "loathe" but "loath".
On those who say evolution is complete bunk, I often ask "So, you are saying the Big Guy is not intelligent enough to design such a system?" --- #13.1 - Oh me! are you sure you do not mean rattus rattus rather than rattus norvegigicus? A full-grown Norway Rat will weigh in excess of ten pounds and be ten inches or longer (if you cut off the tail)! Not as big as a capybara, but I would not want to carry it around. OTOH, one library nearby has a hamster run - and I fully believe its inhabitant would go about eight pounds. So I supose an occasional Norway Rat might be the size of a regular (or "lab") rat. --- Oops, #24 was supposed to be a reply to #14.1.2 about Einstein and dice... Ah, thanks much. I hate spellink errors. I always get them mixed up, like "discreet" and "discrete".
"They can't even agree on what the friggin' earth's core is made of, but everybody knows it makes gravity."
Not exactly. Sincerely, Albert Einstein AC - I'm a little confused. Is your friend "Einstein" claiming the earth doesn't have a core, or that gravity is created by magic?
Doc- you're really hung-up on the magic thing. You know what he meant, that the effect we call gravity is not a result of the earth's core, but of the entire mass of the earth. Although I will say that it is remarkable that Albert came back from the dead to just to respond to this thread...
Gravity has to do wth a planet's density. Mercury is a lot smaller than Mars, for example, but has a much higher density, and the result is that the two planets have an almost identical gravitational field. When it comes to Earth and its core, I'd contend that iron is a lot denser than dirt. It all adds up, certainly, but I'd say it's the iron core that really gives it its oomph.
I am struck by the number of occaisional and new commenters who left remarks here.
I am surprsied the topic touched a nerve to stimulate so many comments. |

